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Focus on: Salvation of our loved ones Empty Re: Focus on: Salvation of our loved ones

Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:30 pm

From: Gilly Sent: 23/10/2005 13:22
Dear Jae,
I hear what you are saying and it is a very painful thought that our loved ones won't be Heaven to meet us. I can only speak for myself, but God is the greatest love affair I have ever had. I couldn't bear the thought of turning away from Him to be in hell with my loved ones watching them suffer and agonise eternally. Which is why it is so important that we give them God's message in this life. So no I would not turn away from my faith, I would turn to it all the more and pray for my dearly departed that God will judge them favourably to spend Eternity with Him.
Gilly
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:29 pm

From: JaeByMoonlight Sent: 23/10/2005 12:33
OK, here's another question for you. If you thought that someone you loved most dearly hadn't believed, hadn't been saved and hadn't had that last chance as they died to meet with God and enter into Heaven, might you then turn away from the Church yourself as you couldn't bear the thought that if you believed then you would have no chance whatsoever to be reunited with that person after death?

Anyone who knows much about me, knows that my father was the most important person in my life. As I was not yet an adult when he died, I don't know what his beliefs were. And I have to believe that he is safe with our loving Heavenly Father and that I shall be with him again when I die. Without that.......
From: Missy Sent: 23/10/2005 12:55
Dear Jae,
Im sorry this must be really difficult for you and also a very sensitive subject. But personally and to be honest I wouldnt turn away because of that. Everyone has the chance while here on earth. Its up to us what route we take.

MISSY
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:28 pm

From: Gilly Sent: 22/10/2005 18:31
Hi Grace,
I think missy has hit the nail on the head here when she says a baby won't know or understand the ceremony which is why a Baptism or Confirmation Ceremony is important as one comes to maturity and is seen as a public demonstration of commiting our lives to Christ. Baptism is more of an act of faith on behalf of the parents who are presenting their child to God and giving assurance that their precious gift from Him will be raised according to His standards.
They say that to look upon a newborn baby is to see God. God's breath has breathed life into them. Jesus said,

'Let the little children come unto me: to such as these the kingdom of Heaven belongs.' Mark19 v13-15

Children do not have the understanding, nor can they, of God's Word. They are born pure and innocent and into a world of sin. That is not to say that they do not perceive of God's love. They do not understand the meaning of love yet we can't doubt that they know how to give and to feel the love of those who nurture and love them....and probably in their trustingness even to those who may not. 1John4v8 tells us very clearly that God IS love. There is absoloutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that all children will be in Heaven when they die regardless of Baptism or not. As a Catholic myself it troubles me deeply to hear the words of the priest whose misunderstanding of God's Word could have brought much suffering to many. We must accept though, that this is not the understanding of all priests and ministers of all Christian denominations. There are good and bad in all churches I am sorry to say.
I was saddened to hear about your nephew's disability. It must be very difficult for his parents at times but extra rewarding with every encouraging sign of emotion he displays. Again I would believe the same applies as for children......in fact for anyone who has an infirmity in mind or emotion at birth.
Love Gilly
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:28 pm

From: Saved_by_Grace5217 Sent: 22/10/2005 13:38
The above posts are all very mind boggling and I'll need to take some time later to consider some of the points put forward but I must ask, what comes of our loved ones who cannot believe in God because they have no understanding? I have a nephew with severe health problems. He has no understanding and to him life is only about this one day as he has almost no recollection of anything that happened in the past, he cannot walk or talk and, although he is 17 years old he needs round the clock care like a baby. Also makes me wonder about the souls of unbaptised babies and the like.

Grace
From: Missy Sent: 22/10/2005 14:55
. Also makes me wonder about the souls of unbaptised babies and the like.

what do you mean by that Grace?
From: Saved_by_Grace5217 Sent: 22/10/2005 15:30
Well Missy it's something that I've often thought about since I was younger when a priest visiting our college told us that unbaptised babies will never see God. It never really made sense to me and this conversation made me think of it again.
From: Missy Sent: 22/10/2005 15:45
Well, to that I would say......

Whats the point in baptising a child when it wont understand the ceremony,and wont have sinned.

MISSY
From: Missy Sent: 22/10/2005 15:56
Grace,
I would like to add that baptism alone does not save you.
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:25 pm

From: Gilly Sent: 22/10/2005 13:14
Hi missy,
Yes thankyou so much for these references. We have opened up a sensitive subject here, and of course God's Word is the standard we work to. So I can fully appreciate your understandings......however the lady I talk about I would equate to Lazarus in this Scripture. We know it is not by our works that God judges us nor had I meant to imply that her good works.....of which there were many....can compare with the faithfulness, humility, kindness and compassion and love she showed to many despite bearing much suffering in her life. Basically, I am making the point that it is what is in our HEARTS, our intentions, that God will judge us upon.....and no-one can know of what her own thoughts or conversations....even prayers to the Lord....may have been. She may have had many conversations with God, but chose not to share them with even her most loved ones. This after all is human nature if there is much internal sufferings and torment. We are not to judge....especially when doing so we may remove the HOPE of Salvation from another's life....her husband....Simply, we cannot be sure, but I believe that maybe through this man having raised this question in the midst of his grief, that it will be his own wife who has brought him to be saved. God certainly knows what He is doing, it is so awesome.
Remember that the love of God is not grounded in your feelings, nor in your performance, and not even in your love for Him. His love is grounded in His own faithfulness. The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; His mercies never come to an end. They are new every morning.

'Great is Thy faithfulness. The Lord is my portion.......Therefore will I hope in Him' Lam.3v23-24

God loves us, not because we are good, but because we need His love in order to be good.
Christ, our High Priest, bore our sins and our infirmities, not because we are good, but because we need His love and acceptance in order to be good.
The Holy Spirit offers us His continuous enabling presence and power, not because we are good, but because we need Him in order to be good.
Here is the complete provision of the Grace of God. The FATHER'S unconditional and accepting love, the SONS complete identification as our High Priest and Wounded Healer with our sins and our infirmities, and the SPIRIT'S daily, loving lifting help.
These are continuous right up to the hour of our death. The Hope and the promise of eternal life are given by a loving God even if up until the hour of their death many are wounded inside. So I believe that Salvation is possible right up to the moment of death. Even if we are too wounded inside to know how to pray, The Holy Spirit living inside us can help us with these infirmities....

'For we do not know how to pray as we should, but the SPIRIT Himself intercedes for us' Romans 8v26

Only the Holy Spirit truly knows the mind of God. And only the Holy Spirit truly understands us. Because He understands the inside of us and understands the inside of the heart of God, He knows how to get these two together. And so the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep to be UTTERED. He intercedes for us in agreement with the will of God.

'He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is' Rom8v27

Dear Elaine,
It is lovely to hear your understandings too and thankyou so much for all the work you have included with references. It is much appreciated, but I am so sorry you are in such pain with arthritis. I do lift you up to the Lord in prayer for his healing my precious Sister in Christ. It must be so frustrating to be in such pain as you type.

Gilly
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:25 pm

Continuing on the Focus thread
From: Dunggate Sent: 22/10/2005 12:19
We can only hope Gilly that these loved ones are in heaven.Most everyone has a vague hope and trust that things will eventually turn out all right and that he will sooner or later get to heaven. I am not alone in being one of them. Rather than an opinion I look to the scriptures, and see the great need to pray, learn much ourselves that we can give a correct answer and evangelise, people need to be aware that the Lord warned us "Enter ye in at the strait gate," He said, "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" Mathew 7: 13,14This same Lord Jesus, who spoke so often of God's love, was at the same time the one who spoke more often of hell than did anyone else in the Bible. John 5 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

This and many other passages, shows us clearly that our time on earth is the acceptable time, Missy gave us the passage of Lazarus. I too have loved ones that have gone on before me and others that are outside of Christ, but all my hope in the world cannot alter what is in the Bible. There are some very encouraging reports of people who have had near death experiences and have shared that in their last moments God has revealed himself to them.

One young man’s testimony springs to mind, which I saw on Revelation TV named Ian McCauley from New Zealand not sure if I have spelt his name correctly, that he was atheist, was close to death and he thought “what if hell is real“, in his mind he said God I have led a dreadful life, words to that effect, and saw his mother and her words where she had spoken to him so often of Jesus. It is quite a dramatic and lengthy testimony which I am unable to write all here, but you get the picture what I am saying. This is the only comfort that I can find, and offer to anyone. Our goal is to as best as we can speak to people clearly the Gospel Message.

About God answering our prayers, yes I agree God is good and full of mercy toward us and often he answers our prayers in a way we don’t deserve. The path that we are on in life in Jesus is our perfecting, and I strive for this in my life.

Ph 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

I have found that there are times that God has said if we were to turn away from our sins then he would hear our prayer for example

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Ch 7:14

I know we come under His grace now but there is a scripture in NT which I remember well What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Romans 6:15

I have had to take a while in typing this and, leave the pc as I have arthritis, some are aware I am unable to sit for lengthy times. Written on Word Document so I do hope we do not have those showing up J

Hope this is of help Love as always Elaine.
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:23 pm

Bringing the remainder of replies and thoughts
to previous posts in that thread.
From: MisterS_uk1 Sent: 13/09/2004 20:31
PS.
as I said once before eternity is a long time to spend in the wrong place.
Love
dharruk
From: Missy Sent: 17/09/2004 14:30
Exactly Dharruk, if only others realised that though. If they considered that as often as they do how weird christians are, they'd go a long way.

MISSY.
From: MisterS_uk1 Sent: 25/10/2004 22:47
Dear anyone,

I thought it was quite important to revisit this, just incase there were some new members who might like to add their thoughts.

love
dh
From: DelugeJo Sent: 03/11/2004 16:28
in heaven i hope
From: ZippieBungle Sent: 03/11/2004 16:44
i dont know where i dont know about this sort of stuff
From: Aidan_WellHitched Sent: 04/11/2004 08:59
"Dying is a necessary part of living"! My favourite quote of all time and from the lips of a 6 year-old girl. It's great wisdom and it removes the fear from the inevitable, or at least I think it does!
Aidan
From: Davetaff Sent: 04/11/2004 13:54
Hi Aiden
If we have eternal life in Christ how can we die. I thought it was Christ who removed the fear of death.

Love & Peace Dave
From: ZippieBungle Sent: 05/11/2004 15:39
probably the ground
From: dawn-chorus7 Sent: 06/11/2004 13:07
Hi zippie, sorry to hear your mum has cancer , yhat must be a worry and make you wonder a bit.
thinking of you,
dawn
From: dawn-chorus7 Sent: 06/11/2004 13:07

Good post, missy !
love from dawn
From: Aidan_WellHitched Sent: 06/11/2004 15:41
If we have eternal life in Christ how can we die?

We all die physically, Dave!
From: ZippieBungle Sent: 08/11/2004 14:20
I am trying to believe in heaven, as that would give me a bit of peace at this time...I don't like the idea of my mum being eaten by worms and that being the end of it-- i wish there was something else after death.

I would love to think that that heaven existed and that my 2 sisters, my older brother, and my dad was there (he killed kimself a few months ago--i wish he was around), but now my mum will be next. i am trying to stay brave for them,,,but i cant cope.
before my mum,got ill she loved doing palm readings, and she used to be a medium...but she was very OTT, in her beliefs,so i just let her carry on with it, but surely it isnt true, its weird!
my muslim friend said that people who are mediums dont go to heaven,so that is why i am worried, cos she will either be eaten by worms and that is it, or she will be in a horrible afterlife!

where will i spend eternity?- the same place as the rest of u, in a coffin or cremated!

Fexx.
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:18 pm

From: MisterS_uk1 Sent: 13/09/2004 20:30
Dear Missy,

Nice one. I listened to Paul Scanlon do a talk on 'Living your Dash'

He was prompted to put the talk together after visiting a graveyard and noticed the messages and information on all the stones included the name and dates:

1927 - 1999. Noticing the dash in between the 2 dates, he thought that it was insignificant, but it represented the person's life. How do we live our dash?

Someone once said we live our life according to how we view death. Interesting, I thought.

Love
dharruk
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:17 pm

Bringing this from another thread
From: Missy (Original Message) Sent: 13/09/2004 16:48
Life is too short ------>
Accident


Sickness -----------------> Death

The average lifespan
is between ----------------> 70-80 years

What is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for little time, and then vanisheth away. James 4:14

THERE ARE 2 ETERNAL DESTINATIONS-

Heaven rev21:3-4
Hell rev20:15

If you were to die today...
where would
you go?heb9:27
It is appointed onto men
once to die,but after this
the judgement.

almost everyone wants to go to.....................
HEAVEN

Many are trying to climb to heaven by their......................
GOOD WORKS


The big question is.......................................

How do we get

there?





The bible says....Romans 3:10

as it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one....



Isiah64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags....

Romans3:23 All have sinned, and ome short of the gloy of God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death.....



Mans greatest problem today is......

SIN.

SIN- separates us from

God.

us--------------------SIN-----------------God



The gap between God and man cannot be bridged by works.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.Romans 3:20

Our Good Works can never pay for our sins.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.Romans3:28

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works; lest any man should boast. Ephesians2:8-9.

Only christ can bridge the gap between God and man............



Faith in christ makes it possible for us to have eternal life and peace with God.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.Romans5:1



There must be a sincere decision of the heart.

LIFE is too short.

Everyone is going to die some day.

Do you expext to recieve Christ someday?

when does God say that you should be saved?

Behold,now is the excepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. 2 Corintians 6 :2

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved romans 10:13.
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:16 pm

From: Missy Sent: 22/10/2005 09:27
Hi Gilly,
Sorry it took me so long replying.

I have to admit that I would probably agree with this guy. You choose where your going while here on earth. I know some people enter into relationships with him while here on earth etc, but I would say that a lack of understanding may be due to holding back and giving your "all" to him.

Something which always brings it home for me is the story of Lazarus and the rich man.


19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Luke16:19-31



This story made me question "would I see my family suffer when they die if they didnt get saved?" Abraham clearly tells the rich man thats its the familys choice whether or not they listen. We could say he nevr showed them any favour. Ill try find some more stuff on this for you if you would like.

MISSY.
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:15 pm

From: Gilly Sent: 20/10/2005 21:39
Thanks missy for raising this subject for discussion....I'm sure that it is something that all we Christians spend a great deal of our lives praying and worrying about.
Like so many of us I go through great torment that some of my most precious loved ones are not saved.....I love them so dearly I can't bear the thought of not spending eternity with them. Yes, our constantly praying for our children, our spouse, our family and friends is one positive thing we can do and our constancy in our love for the Lord may well encourage them in their own chosen paths, but what of our loved ones who died unsaved?
Only last evening ,at an Alpha course I have encouraged a few of my friends along to, this very topic was raised. A lovely, elderly gentleman who was so obviously grieving deeply still for his beloved wife was seeking an assurance that his late dear wife, who was a devoted, caring and compassionate lady that always gave of herself to others, would have gone to Heaven even though she had not been a church going Christian. He had searched the Bible for God's reassurance that when it was his turn to die that she would be there waiting for him. The thought that she may not had filled him with an unbearable pain. One church leader told him in no uncertain terms that as she was not saved there was no likelihood he should be with her again. I could scarcely believe his words...or at least his understanding of God's Words. The Holy Spirit led me to share my understanding on this .....and I have to say, it is also the understanding of many Ministers I am priviledged to share my ministry with...
I believe our God is a loving and forgiving God whose only desire is that we share the rest of eternity with Him. It is my belief that at the moment of death our Heavenly Father will stand before us in all His glory and say 'Now do you believe?' I believe that at the moment of our death we will be given another chance to accept Him as our Lord and Saviour. We cannot give this assurance as the Bible gives no clear direction, but we are given clear instruction about God's judgement, and the hope that we are judged by what is in our hearts. He knows all our thoughts, our torments and struggles, and for every one of our sins He has complete and total understanding. Our thoughts, our motives are all revealed to Him, and there are many good and loving people who perhaps have heard God's Word believing they were Christians without ever having entered into a relationship with Him, perhaps through lack of understanding. I believe our loving Father will look very favourably upon such as these. I am not for one moment condoning the sin of not entering into this most precious and important relationship, but we must remember we are all only human, all sin, and all fall short of the Glory of The Lord.... but that is the way He made us, we can only strive towards perfection as we all cope with the knocks that life deals us. It is us who miss out on the joy, the peace and the abubdance of this life if we choose to not enter into a relationship with Him.
I feel sure that there is much more we can all say on this subject and I should very much appreciate hearing all your views.
Missy, your chosen Scriptures are very much appreciated. God's Word's are sooooo reassuring.
Elaine, I hear what you are saying but I feel that we are entering the arena of 'forgiveness' and people's 'misunderstanding' of true forgiveness. I believe God answers all prayers whether we have unrepented sin in our lives or not. His forgiveness is freely given. The difference of my understanding being that we cannot 'receive' His forgiveness and the peace and healing until we have repented of our sins.
gbu all
Gilly
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Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:15 pm

From: Missy (Original Message) Sent: 16/10/2005 17:40

Salvation of our loved ones.

We all want our loved ones to come to know God. I don't mean to sound judgemental but since i got saved I can see how "unsaved" (to choose a word) some of my friends and family seem. Some of them at times seem unsavable, make me feel frustrated even, so its a great worry to me as im sure it is to those of you that read this. I mean we know what the consequences are (hell) and none of us want to see anyone we care about go that way. Im sure some of you with older kids have concerns too. So I thought we could begin with this Topic. I hope from this we can share our own experiences, support and pray for one another and their loved ones. I also know it will be a great comfort to you (as it was to me) to know what the bible says on this.

23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete. John16:23-24

The verse above clearly tells us that whatever we ask for, we shall recieve. It doesn' say its just "certain" things, it means ANYTHING!

4 He will defend the afflicted among the people
and save the children of the needy;
he will crush the oppressor. Psalm72:4

The needy to me here is us when we need him, and it clearly says "he will save the children". The opressors are the people that take people away from God. ie, drug dealers etc. (which is obviously the devil himself.).
16 May your deeds be shown to your servants,
your splendor to their children. Psalm 90:16

This says, if you continue to serve him, then your children too will experience his glory.

28 The children of your servants will live in your presence;
their descendants will be established before you." Psalm102:28

This means your children because you are his servant, and their descendants are their children, your grandchildren.

3 Sons are a heritage from the LORD,
children a reward from him.

4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior
are sons born in one's youth.

5 Blessed is the man
whose quiver is full of them.
They will not be put to shame
when they contend with their enemies in the gate.Psalm127:3-5

Your children are a gift from God. When he says they will have authority over the gate, he means the devil.

17 Your sons hasten back,
and those who laid you waste depart from you.

25 But this is what the LORD says:
"Yes, captives will be taken from warriors,
and plunder retrieved from the fierce;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and your children I will save.

Your sons will return to God quickly, v17.

God will fight the devil for you and save your children,v25.

13 All your sons will be taught by the LORD,
and great will be your children's peace. Isiah54:13

This speaks for itself, don't you think?

35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. Hebrews10:35-36

Be patient for your reward, faith is the key, never give up.

23" 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."Mark9:23

All things are possible to those that believe.

3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb [a] for his family, one for each household .Exodus12:3

Its says here "each man take a lamb for him and his family", your salvation brings grace over your whole family.

The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. Gen7:1

God considered Noah alone to be righteous yet he allowed all his family onto the arc.

16 This is what the LORD says:
"Restrain your voice from weeping
and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,"
declares the LORD.
"They will return from the land of the enemy.

17 So there is hope for your future,"
declares the LORD.
"Your children will return to their own land. Jer31:16-17

The above bible verses are what I myself learned a few weeks back and thought and hope you all find them helpful.
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Focus on: Salvation of our loved ones Empty Focus on: Salvation of our loved ones

Post  Admin Sat 17 Jan 2009, 3:13 pm

Gilly and NCB
Asked could we have a discussion on the Salvation of our loved ones.
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