Focus:Will Jesus Literally return to this earth?

From: Dunggate Sent: 24/02/2006 12:50
God has given us a brain and it isn't rocket science to work out this will not happen until Jesus returns and the reward given as mentioned in 1 Cor 6: 2,3,
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I agree there is a need for organisation "otherwise, how do you administer sacraments? " but in my opinion this is off topic.
How would you explain the said verse of 1 Cor 6: 2,3,?
In love Elaine.

From: Tim Sent: 24/02/2006 12:36
I typed a long response and my computer chomped it. great.

Long and short - dont underestimate the need for organisation in religion, after all, half the new testament talks about it.

your last post makes little sense - your quotation says nothing about 'coming back' to judge, you're reading that into it yourself, a pitful in successful biblical exegesis.

There are dodgy denominations out there (i wont name and shame), but there is a need for organisation - otherwise, how do you administer sacraments? The alternative to organised denominations with centralised teaching is what we are left with in a lot of churches, looney teaching by those who dont fully understand the bible, but think they do.

In love, T.

From: Dunggate Sent: 24/02/2006 10:05
Woops I missed this one Tim
You quoted 'Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life' - in no way does that answer or contradict what I said about flying away and coming back again - there is no point to be had here. Not surprising though, there arent any in support of rapture to be found in the bible.
The point I was making there was on our return we will judge the world. i.e. "coming back"
I think we will all agree something pretty drastic has to happen before we see the saints judging the nations.
in Love Elaine.

From: Dunggate Sent: 24/02/2006 09:55
Hi Tim,
First I would like to point out. I do not go by the teaching of any Denomination or teacher,but search the bible for myself. We are told to search the scriptures for ourselves . Taking heed to what is written. For the very reason in these few scriptures I bring below.
Mark 13: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
2 Peter 2: 1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Tim, In your reply to me: I agree - so why are you clinging onto a 7 year tribulation and rapture and 1000 year reign?

You may not have noticed I did not mention a 7 year tribulation or 1,000 year reign or expound on it other than................

I stated actually :When we look at the prophecy, we are not to be a “date-setter,” but we are to watch. “Signs” are for the Jew. There is nothing to prevent Christ coming for His Church at any time.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I should have ended my post with to watch.........THAT.......
WE ALL SHOULD BE READY..........this should be our priority.
Love in Jesus Elaine.

From: Tim Sent: 24/02/2006 08:00
Hi Gilly,

I can recommend a few books - 'End Time Delusions' is written by an evangelical pastor and is veyr good for laymen tryint to understand eschatology - it doesnt satisfy my wants and I think he could go a lot further, but he goes some way to biblically showing the reasons.A link is here - http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product/?item_no=429609&p=1010575 Admittedly though, from a scholarly point of view, its not too neutral. Though I agree with his points, he does come from a christian perspective, so academically we wouldnt class him as 'neutral'.

Another book is 'The End Times Made Simple: How could everyone be so wrong about Biblical Prophecy?' - this is better, its by a guy who did his PhD in a baptist seminary in the states - http://www.ecampus.com/book/1879737507

The problem is Gilly, is that its taken for granted that the rapture is a load of made up rubbish in most of academia - its not a point even worth discussion, as its a moot point. We have to separate many issues that you mentioned.

Millennialism - now this has more mileage - though 99% of modern theologians, academics and bible believing Christians (who are educated) are amillenialist (i.e. believe that the 1000 year reign mentioned in Rev 20 is representational, i.e. 'a long time'), this issue has long been debated amongst the early church, e.g. Origen, Tertullian etc. There is an excellent book I have read, but I dont own, called Regnum caelorum : patterns of millennial thought in early Christianity, by Charles Hill - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802846343/qid=1140766053/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl/026-5613031-7589220 - I used this for a paper a few months back, but it is very scholarly, very neutral and looks at how the early church interpreted the 1000 years. My quick viewpoint, is that it seems very silly, in a book that is allegorical, vision filled and using every literary tool written under the sun, including imagery (it really is a wonderful book), to suddenly take this one verse out and take it literally - but then that is christian fundamentalism for you. I havent read this book, but a quick amazon search bought up 'Millennium Myth' - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0893342742/qid=1140766160/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_2_5/026-5613031-7589220

There is room for discussion on Millennialism.

Rapture - there is no room for discussion. Its like someone saying 'I dont believe France exists'. You cant believe or not believe it, its fact, if they dont want to actually go to France and see it, theres no point discussing it, you confine them to the looney bin! This really is taken for granted amongst scholars and theologians, and most mainstream Christians as a myth. A quick flick in my library on Revelation (bare in mind this is VAST as I am doing my PhD on it) finds nothing in any commentary on 'rapture'. If we are going to accept Rapture, we dont find it in Revelation; thats a fact. The only possible verse that could be misconstrewed (sp.?) to mean 'rapture' by its supporters is 1Thess 4:16 (I think...havent got it to hand..). I REALLY recommend this book - 'Unveiling Empire - Reading Revelation then and now' - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570752877/qid%3D1140766451/026-5613031-7589220 this is worth every penny - its scholarly looks at all viewpoints and looks at the socio-economic setting of Revelation. If you buy any book, buy this one, I cant praise it enough.

Its easy to believe/not believe what I say - so lets look at a few links, come on a journey with me - lets look at 'statement of faiths' -the hard fought out doctrines by the churches of the world that say what they believe, and lets look in regards to 'rapture' and the general second come.

Baptist Union of Great Britain - http://www.baptist.org.uk/Baptists/declaration.htm - nothing mentioned.

Elim Pentecostal Church - this is a fundamental, pentecostal denomination, biggest in the UK and in Africa. Their main website is down, but we can see the declaration of faith on the website of my church - http://www.citytemple.info/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=32 - notice it says in the coming king 'We believe in the personal, physical and visible return of our Lord Jesus Christ to reign in power and glory' - anything about rapture? No. But hang on, their used to be. I am looking at the statement before this one that said 'we believe in the personal and premillennial (that is, rapture) return of Lord Jesus Christ'. This changed in 1995 at the Swanwick Conference - I have the conference notes in front of me. This was the statement of faith between 1939-1995 - why did it change? Their reason (bare in mind this a very fundamental group of Christians) ' in light of overwhelming biblical evidence, the rapture theory is one that was a fashion trend amongst the middle of this century'.

Catholicism - hey im not a fan of Catholicism, but, they are against the rapture. A quick search in any Catholic website will tell you this, look at www.catholic.org

Lets look at the most world famous, fundamentalist church in the world - The Southern Baptists - now these guys know how to do a statement of faith, check out http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp - under article 10 'last things', it says 'God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.' This is the most fundamental group in the world, and they dont even mention rapture.

The only church organisation that actually puts the rapture idea in its statement of belief is the Assembly of God church - http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Statement_of_Fundamental_Truths/sft_short.cfm. This church is renowned for poor biblical scholarship and in my mind are the original 'fools on fire'. I dont mean this derogatorily, but when they were presented a paper at the United Pentecostal Conference in 1993, they didnt even read it, their leader called them 'you are nothing but scholars on ice', to which he responded 'well sir, im afraid you are fools on fire'.

The truth is, rapture wasnt even mentioned until 1897, nowhere. Not in any literature in the world does anyone talk about it until then. And why do people talk about it now? Probably because of the fictional 'Left Behind' series. Well, if they want to put their faith in a story written by man in the 1970's that he admits is fiction, then they are on their own.

Right, to Elaine's points -

I do not deny the existence of a tribulation per se - just not a seven year one! Most Christians believe this is the time of tribulation, I mean for goodness sake look at the news. We just dont accept the material construction of a seven year one. You quoted Jesus, did he say anything about seven years?

You quoted 'Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life' - in no way does that answer or contradict what I said about flying away and coming back again - there is no point to be had here. Not surprising though, there arent any in support of rapture to be found in the bible.

You also said 'Acts 1:7. Jesus knew of Daniel’s prophecy of the “Seventy Weeks"' - rubbish, and anyone else looking at this passage will agree. The author of acts says "He said to them: It is not for you to know the time or dates the father has sent by hiw own authority" - where on earth does that entail that Jesus understoof the seventy weeks prophecy? No doubt Jesus was aware of Dan 9:27, but the seventy weeks is a construct that I demonstrated in the previous post.

You say: 'Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father' I agree - so why are you clinging onto a 7 year tribulation and rapture and 1000 year reign?

All said in love, sorry if harsh in places but this is my number one peev in Christianity - fundamental Christians who misinterpret scripture or constrew it to fit with what they have been taught by bad teachers.

Tim.

From: Dunggate Sent: 24/02/2006 00:42
Hi Tim,
I see thing differently to you so we will agree to disagree I have not gone into great detail but you will no doubt see what I am saying. I have copied a short comment from your post and replied. I wont re-post what you have said just given the header. Love in Jesus Elaine.

TIM :rapture suggests being taken away from all the suffering 'the tribulation' (if there is to be such a thing)
THE BIBLE SAYS
mathew 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Rev7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
TIM but I am sure we wont disappear and come back again,
THE BIBLE SAYS
1 Cor 6: 2,3,
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
TIM:Lets remember that Daniel was written whilst Jews were in exile in Babylon. Dan 9:24-27
.
LET'S REMEMBER
The Lord was not present at the destruction of Jerusalem. It was destroyed by Roman soldiers, and none of the things that are to occur at the “Second Coming” occurred at the destruction of Jerusalem, such as the resurrection of the dead, the translation of living saints, and the physical changes that are to occur at Jerusalem and in the land of Palestine at Christ’s coming. Zech. 14:4-11. Ez. 47:1-12. Christ’s purpose in coming back is not to destroy Jerusalem, but to RESTORE It must be trodden down of the Gentiles until the “Times of the Gentiles” are fulfilled, "then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” Luke 21:24-28.
Acts 1:7. Jesus knew of Daniel’s prophecy of the “Seventy Weeks” (Dan. 9:20-27), but He fixed no dates for their fulfillment. When we look at the prophecy, we are not to be a “date-setter,” but we are to watch. “Signs” are for the Jew. There is nothing to prevent Christ coming for His Church at any time.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

From: Gilly Sent: 23/02/2006 23:28
Hi Tim, very interesting post...have you got any recommended links or reading you can let me have about rapture, tribulation/ post tribulation that is independently researched if poss....or your own research. I must confess that I still have much to learn to reach my own understanding so would appreciate any help you can give or recommend.
Thanks
Gilly

From: Tim Sent: 23/02/2006 22:31
is there a search facility on this forum? Im not sure. Hope so. If so, please type in rapture and look for my posts on it, ive written copious amounts on it. Not going to type it all again, but just a proper look at why 'rapture' is a bit dilusional, but rather we should focus on 'the second coming' - there is a difference. But, benefit of the doubt, a lot of people dont know the difference. In a nutshell - rapture suggests being taken away from all the suffering 'the tribulation' (if there is to be such a thing) and then plonked back down or so.

Rather, my view is (on the topic matter) yes Jesus will return literally - im not sure that we will meet him in the air (we have to understand the allegory and representative greek metaphor used here in Thess.), but I am sure we wont disappear and come back again, and I certainly dont believe in a very distorted and mindboggling understanding of Daniel that means a 7 year tribulation. That takes more believing (and careful mathematics) than me being a 16 tonne whale, which Im not.

Argh I knew I was going to have to do this, I just cant help myself - im going to have to explain why I dont believe in a seven year tribulation - rather, why most of Christendom doesnt, just fundamentals who like their bible as a fax from heaven devoid of any human contact.

Firstly, some wise words that have always stuck with me -

'A man who has committed a mistake and doesnt correct it, is committing another mistake' - Confucius (551-479BCE)

If you look for a 'seven year tribulation' passage in the bible, you wont find it, its not there. Rather, it is based on two words in Dan. 9:27 - 'one week'. Ill go on.

Lets remember that Daniel was written whilst Jews were in exile in Babylon. Dan 9:24-27 contains a profecy for the Jews to encourage them that their people would be given 'a second chance' to return to Jerusalem, rebuild the temple and ultimate receive their Messiah. Notice the term 'seventy weeks' - Gabriel then subdivides this into three smaller periods of seven weeks (v.25), sixty two weeks (v.25) and one week (v.27). 7+62+1=70.

70 weeks = 490 days, a day in prophecy represents a year (see Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6). So, 490 days = 490 years. After 69 weeks (483 years) the Messiah will be cut off (v.26) and it says 'the people of the prince tht shall come shall destory the city and sanctuary' (v.26). This seems to logically apply to the biggest event other than Christ to shape the New Testament, the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70AD.

So we have 69 weeks fulfilled, leaving the one week left - the 70th week of daniel.

Based on the day-year principle (which no theologian objects to), the one week = 7 years, hence our '7 year tribulation'.

Rapture teachers teach the following -

1. 'He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week' - 'he' is the antichrist, who will make a peace treaty with the Jews during the seven years of trib.
2. 'In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease' - in the middle of the 7 year trib, the antichrist will break his covenant and turn against Israel.
3. the phrase 'he shall cause the sacrifice to cease' is viewed as irrefutable proof that a jewish temple must be rebuilt on the temple mount inside jerusalem.
Now, let me explain.

A proper translation of Dan 9:27 (KJV) is 'He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease...'. The big difference is that the vast majority of biblical commentators apply 9:27 to Jesus, not the antichrist like rapture teachers.

Take Matthew Henry for example, who said 'by offering himself as a sacrifice once for all, Jesus shall put an end to all the levitical sacrifices'. Another famous commentary, Adam Clarke, said 'Jesus would himself confirm or ratify the new covenant with mankind'. They clearly mean Jesus, not the antichrist.

The following are succinct reasons why I, and most of Christendom, dont believe in a seven year tribulation;

The entire prophecy of 9:24-27 covers a period of seventy weeks. Logic requires that 70 weeks be one consecutive block, i.e. 70 sequential weeks. There is no example anywhere in scripture of a started period of time starting, then stopping, and starting again. All biblical prophecy is consecutive, think 400 years in Egypt (Gen15:13), 40 days/nights (Gen 7:4) etc.
Logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week, if it doesnt, its not the 70th week, its the 1st week of another series.
It is illogical to insert a 2000 year gap (at least) between the 69th and 70th week, there is no hint of a gap given in the prophecy.
Dan 9:27 says nothing of a seven year tribulation, or rebuilt Jewish temple ir any antichrist.
The focus of the prophecy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. It clearly alludes to 70AD and the destruction of the Jewish temple.
Paul said in Gal 3:17 that the covenant was 'confirmed before God in Christ'. The word 'covenant' is always referring to Christ in biblical context - anything else is a treaty.
Matt 2:28 - Jesus directly quoting Dan 9:27
Even in 1846, the Presbyterian's picked up on this ' The 70 weeks of Daniel therefore, have certainly ended centuries ago. We are not to look to the future for fullfillment of this predictions. We must look to the past.'


How people still believe a seven year trib is a mystery, but just another tool and by product of a fundamentalist age where serious biblical understanding and exegesis is not done - rather, what they want to happen, is preached.

I think it was Mark Twain who said 'A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes'.

Tim.

From: Missy Sent: 23/02/2006 19:04
I like learning this stuff, I already knew the answer but I like learning details.

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 23/02/2006 18:54
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This scripture just about answers the original question Elaine.

The angels said...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Steve

From: Dunggate Sent: 23/02/2006 12:46
Christ will return to earth but I want to point out what will happen first.
WE NEED TO BE WATCHMEN

Christ will come first in the air, and the saint shall be "caught up” to meet Him "IN THE AIR.”
Thes 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
1Thes 5:1-2 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
Mathew 24: The way Jesus put it........Take note at verse 51
The Words of the Lord himself. Mathew 24:46-51
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then after the risen and translated saints have been judged and rewarded for their works, and they, as the Church, The Bride of Christ, He will come with them to the earth and land on the Mount of Olives, the place, He ascended. “And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.” Zech. 14:4.

The First Stage of His return is called "THE RAPTURE;”where the bride will be taken to heaven to be judged and receive the reward of their works.
If we do not want to be "ashamed at His Coming,” I John 2:28, let us see to it that we abide in Him.

The Second Stage Will be his return to earth Zech14:4
Elaine.

From: Gilly Sent: 22/02/2006 23:03
Luke 21 v25-28
The Coming of the Son of Man.

''There will be strange things happening to the sun, the moon and the stars. On earth whole countries will be in despair, afraid of the roar of the sea and the raging tides. People will faint from fear as they wait for what is coming over the whole earth, for the powers in space will be driven from their courses. THEN THE SON OF MAN WILL APPEAR, coming in a cloud with great power and glory. When these things begin to happen, stand up and raise your heads, because your salvation is near.''

Yes, I do believe Jesus will literally return to earth, because He tells me He will.
Gilly

From: Dunggate Sent: 22/02/2006 14:46
Thessalonians 4:14 The dead in Christ shall rise first For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them
also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto
you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto
the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For
the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up
together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so
shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with
these words.
More of His return to earth later
Elaine.

From: Dunggate Sent: 17/02/2006 17:58

Yes! more writing when I have time bit pressed and know you know
Hope you understood that hurried message, know you know I m pressed for time I mean

Elaine.

From: Missy (Original Message) Sent: 15/02/2006 10:59
Will Jesus Literally return to this earth?
What do you think?