Focus: Can we lose our Salvation

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 21/11/2005 00:11
Surely it depend on the source and substance of salvation.

If being born again is a work of the Spirit of God which produces the gt of faith (as taught in Ephesians 2) then the source is God andif He cant keep what is His own there's no assurance or anyone.

If the substance of salvation is being a new spiritual creation in christ then that new life is immortal and if we can lose it then God has failed.

2 things are clear to me. Many people make professions in this superficial evangelistic world when in relity God has not performed a life-changing work of grace so when they turn away it seems they have 'lost' their salvation but it is likely they never had it in the first place. The work of regeneration is more robust than that.

Also we can lose the awareness of our dsalvation when we allow ourselves to walk in rebellion but John 6 maintains that unless we are stronger thn Jesus and the Father combind then there is nothing that can rmove us from his keeping power.See also Romans 8 'nothng can separate us from the love of God.'

trevorofbude

I am posting from the link given in previous post as this will be lost once MSN close groups.
You will find in
Forum Bible Gems:
moderator Bertie.

Thread: Ixtheus Brother Bob
The Spirit vs the Flesh

From: Dunggate Sent: 19/11/2005 12:39
I have taken this extract from Our Daily Conflict: The Spirit vs the Flesh
Which I have posted on Weekly Focus. This is something we should concentrate on at all times. I have given the link should this get lost in the threads, I feel the below says it all and covers well that whichever we feed the most WINS. Elaine. Romans 8:13 For if you keep on following it you are lost and will perish

http://groups.msn.com/WorldwideChristians/weeklyfocus.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=8940&LastModified=4675548290263212080

I also remember this analogy about the spiritual conflict in a Christian's life that may help to clarify the issue. Someone once said that the Christian life is like putting two fighting-dogs in a burlap sack. They will inevitably fight each other, and the one who wins the fight is the one who you feed the most. And so it is in the Christian life... we have two adversarial spiritual natures in our lives. The one that will habitually win over the other will be the one that you "feed" and nurture the most.

I have copied below a relatively long passage below from the Living Bible in Romans. This is admittedly really long, but it clearly states the problem and the solution. Paul's discussion of this actually starts earlier in Chapter 7, but this part covers it pretty well.

Rom 7:18-25 (TLB)
I know I am rotten through and through
so far as my old sinful nature is concerned.
No matter which way I turn I can't make myself do right.
I want to but I can't.
{19} When I want to do good, I don't;
and when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway.
{20} Now if I am doing what I don't want to, it is plain where the trouble is:
sin still has me in its evil grasp.
{21} It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right,
I inevitably do what is wrong.

{22} I love to do God's will so far as my new nature is concerned;
{23} but there is something else deep within me, in my lower nature,
that is at war with my mind and wins the fight
and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
In my mind I want to be God's willing servant,
but instead I find myself still enslaved to sin.
{24} So you see how it is:
my new life tells me to do right,
but the old nature that is still inside me loves to sin.
Oh, what a terrible predicament I'm in!
Who will free me from my slavery to this deadly lower nature?

{25} Thank God! It has been done by Jesus Christ our Lord.
He has set me free.
{Rom 8:1-21} So there is now no condemnation
awaiting those who belong to Christ Jesus.
{2} For the power of the life-giving Spirit--
and this power is mine through Christ Jesus--
has freed me from the vicious circle of sin and death.
{3} We aren't saved from sin's grasp by knowing the commandments of God because we can't and don't keep them,
but God put into effect a different plan to save us.
He sent his own Son in a human body like ours--
except that ours are sinful--
and destroyed sin's control over us
by giving himself as a sacrifice for our sins.
{4} So now we can obey God's laws if we follow after the Holy Spirit
and no longer obey the old evil nature within us.
{5} Those who let themselves be controlled by their lower natures
live only to please themselves,
but those who follow after the Holy Spirit
find themselves doing those things that please God.
{6} Following after the Holy Spirit leads to life and peace,
but following after the old nature leads to death
{7} because the old sinful nature within us is against God.
It never did obey God's laws and it never will.
{8} That's why those who are still under the control of their old sinful selves,
bent on following their old evil desires,
can never please God.
{9} But you are not like that.
You are controlled by your new nature
if you have the Spirit of God living in you.
(And remember that if anyone doesn't have the Spirit of Christ living in him,
he is not a Christian at all.)

Rom 8:12-17(TLB)
So, dear brothers,
you have no obligations whatever to your old sinful nature
to do what it begs you to do.
{13} For if you keep on following it you are lost and will perish,
but if through the power of the Holy Spirit you crush it and its evil deeds,
you shall live.
{14} For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
{15} And so we should not be like cringing, fearful slaves,
but we should behave like God's very own children,
adopted into the bosom of his family,
and calling to him, "Father, Father."
{16} For his Holy Spirit speaks to us deep in our hearts
and tells us that we really are God's children.
{17} And since we are his children, we will share his treasures--
for all God gives to his Son Jesus is now ours too.

And as if that weren't enough scripture, if a christian does sin, there is always 1John 1:8-9, which is the way to confess it and ask God's forgiveness, and to get right with God again.

1 John 1:8-9 (KJV)
If we say that we have no sin,
we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
{9} If we confess our sins,
He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

From: Gilly Sent: 18/11/2005 22:31
Hi guys,
sorry I'm a bit late joining in on this debate. Are we saying that if a saved person falls back into their sinful ways they have lost their Salvation permanently. Perhaps we can open up this debate a little. How many are in agreement here? Or are we saying we have lost our Salvation if we turn away from God?
Blessings Gilly
From: Missy Sent: 19/11/2005 09:11
Hi Gilly,
Good to have you back.


Can anyone fall back into their sinful ways without turning away from God?

If someones lead a sinful life, turned to God asking for salvation, then 3 months down the line returns to that life, a life without God, then they woud be on the wrong road again.


Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John14:6.

I think we need to turn away from our previous lives, make a commitment to God, yes its difficult at the start but eventually we should move on. As your relationship with God grows this should get easier, you will love him so much you won't want to SIN!

MISSY.

Feel free to add to this post.

Coming to a close on what I have brought.

I would that we will all be diligent in our walk. Be thankful for his Grace toward us and also to search the scriptures and take heed to also the warnings.

Abba Father Bless us with your Grace and Mercy and let each of us be filled to overflowing with your Holy Spirit which leads us into all truths. That you will say to us:
Well done though good and faithful Servant, come receive the reward of your inheritance.

Love in Jesus Our Lord, Saviour and coming King.
Elaine.

From: Dunggate Sent: 17/11/2005 21:40
What is a true conversion? A true conversion is a change of heart,
when one accepts Christ into their heart ,the seed is planted and it
is a change of heart and mind. It's not only believeing that Jesus
died for your sins but it is turning away from sin to Christ. So an
answer is a change of heart toward Christ and away from sin.

How does it happen? A true conversion can only happen by repentance
and repentance means to turn away from wrong and to keep turning
away. To be converted you become new, there is an initial newness
you recieve as you accept Christ into your heart by faith but also
be converted into the image of Christ is an ongoing thing in a
Christian's life. And how it can happen is by being born again of
the Spirit, we cannot accomplish living a righteous life by
ourselves we need God's Spirit.

How does one know the difference? One can know the difference
because there will be fruit, there will be change, there will be
growth. The old Stephanie will be put to death and the new
person who is alive in Christ. For myself when I was converted there
was a change and it had to do with my heart, i no longer felt a
desire or an absolute want for sin, my desire turned towards God, my
longing turned towards God, I longed to please Him with every bit of
my life. But there was and is temptations and as we grow in Christ
we become more victorous through them, and it comes by the renewing
of our minds, by filling up in His Word and by filtering out all
those things that pollute our minds.

Why do we need it? Faith without the Spirit is dead, we are dead
without the Spirit and to be converted is to recieve a new Spirit,
it is to be born again. We need a change of heart because we are
decietfully wicked and without that initial conversion of being born
again of the Spirit, we have no promise of seeing the Kingdom of
God.
To Believe"

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that
whosoever believes in Him should not perish but shall have
everlasting life"

There are so many people that use this verse and say they are
Christians and that they are going to heaven, but this is one of the
most used verses to state that this is all they need is to believe
in Him, which it is in a sense but they don't know what believe in
Him means.
The word believe is an action word, to believe in Him is to do
what He says, to follow Christ, to live in him. Their are many
people that have some form of godliness but just because someone
says they believe in Jesus does not mean anything, the words should
match the life. So to say all you need is to trust what He did for
you and believe but not turn from your old ways and not live the
life. That is not a Christian, there needs to be a true conversion,
I think everyone who claims to be a Christian should be able to tell
their conversion. Their are many that have grown up in the church
and still have not had an conversion but have alot of knowledge but
have not given their complete life to Christ. It is about being
born again, a spiritual birth. Many young people have been brought up
in church doing their own
thing they know of Jesus butare they saved no way. Just like what Jesus
said to Nicodemus, "You must be born again" Their are many people
that "know of Him" but being a Christian is to follow Him.

From: Missy Sent: 16/11/2005 13:29
Yes.

Jesus paid the price for sin, so we can be saved from the PENALTY of sin by believing in Him, accepting He died because of our sin, that God raised Him from the dead, and confessing Him as Lord of our life.

We are being saved from the POWER of sin as we live daily obedience to His commandments.

We will one day be saved from the PRESENCE of sin.

There is no alternative - Jesus said He is THE WAY, the truth and the life and there is no other route. So if you leave him, go do what you want in life, you've lost your salvation.

MISSY.

CAN WE LOSE OUR SALVATION?

When reading the scriptures
I look to:- 2 Thes 2 :3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
This is the Apostacy. To fall away we must have first received the good news. Take this into account. Jesus have given us Free will and we can chose to walk away from what he has done for us.
Read also:
THE PARABLE OF THE SEEDS
Mathew 13:3--9
JESUS EXPLAINS
Mathew 13:
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


For He also said: Mathew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Luke 6
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?