Focus: Revelation 7: - 144.000

From: Missy Sent: 15/08/2006 13:13
Thanks for taking time to write this up Lane.

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 18/08/2006 08:20
I agree with Elaine. I cant say any more than that.

God Bless
Steve

From: Dunggate Sent: 15/08/2006 11:58
The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor. The author known as "John the Elder" from Ephesus
Ephesus was both the capital of the Roman province of Asia and one of the earliest centers of Christianity
According to the Book, John was on the island of Patmos, not far from the coast of Asia Minor (Turkey)
Patmos can be best seen from Didim
"because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 1.10).he had been exiled there as a martyr for his Christian faith
"I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet" (Rev. 1.11), and this voice tells him to write what he is about to see. This begins the vision that is at the center of the book.

The overall is to show in which the faithful are now standing, as they await the final things to take place
sometimes thought to be in Revelation is the Rapture, that is, the snatching away of Christians just at the last moment before the Tribulation occurs. This, is not actually in the Book of Revelation itself, that actually comes from a passage in First Thessalonians My understanding from my study a literal 1,000 years will pass while the Tribulation begins on earth that had began in heaven. The Church has been removed The body of Christ.
Who are the 144,000
Twice in this book, mention is made of a group consisting of 144,000. In chapter 7: John heard of 144,000 (12,000 each from twelve different Israelite tribes) servants of God who had been sealed on their foreheads. They were thus obviously redeemed people.
Rev 7:14 he said to me, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation.
Also, the apostle saw a “great multitude, which no man can number” out of every nation. These too were redeemed individuals who had been made white in the Lamb’s blood (v. 14). Again, in Revelation 14:1, John saw the Lamb on Mount Zion. With him were 144,000, sealed with the Father’s name upon their foreheads. This great multitude had been “purchased out of the earth,” and they were said to be the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.”
The Seventh Seal Rev 8
8:13 Then I looked, and I heard an eagle flying directly overhead,proclaiming with a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe to those who live on the earth because of the remaining sounds of the trumpets of the three angels who are about to blow them!”

Rev 9
9:1 Then the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the abyss.He opened the shaft of the abyss and smoke rose out of it like smoke from a giant furnace. The sun and the air were darkened with smoke from the shaft. Then out of the smoke came locusts onto the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. They were told not to damage the grass of the earth, or any green plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their forehead.
(The only one who has the key to the abyss is Jesus who conquered the grave and was given the key)
Rev 10
7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the mystery of God is completed
Rev 11
11:7 When they have completed their testimony, the beast that comes up from the abyss will make war on them and conquer them and kill them.
AS I SAID AFTER Rev 9 (The only one who has the key to the abyss is Jesus who conquered the grave and was given the key)

11:14 The second woe has come and gone the third is coming quickly.

When reading Revelations I find that it is not necessarily in order of Chapter how things have and will occur. I see the 144,000 as those who have come out of the tribulation The Jew who had not recognised the Messiah previously, but refused to follow the beast.
The end of the Book of Revelation sees a new heaven and a new earth coming down and a new Jerusalem being established ... . What John seems to be saying is that when the triumph of God comes over the dragon, over the forces of the devil, and a new heaven and earth will be created ... God will dwell on earth with Man as he first intended from Genesis.

Elaine.

From: Missy Sent: 15/08/2006 09:01
Trevor & Steve,

If you want to discuss the book of Revelation in gerneral, please start another thread, this is about the 144,000.

Thanks.

MISSY.

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 15/08/2006 08:50
Hi Trev,

You say...
Where is there any evidence that the book refers to 'after the church era'?

Well l just gave it to you in my post. Rev 4v1.

Trev if you take the view that this book refers to the church era (chapters 2-4) and then the final judgment (chapter 20).

What about everything else in between? Anyone looking at the judgment described in these chapters would have to say that non of them have occurred during world history yet?

As as for the Millennium being as you put it, (into some millennial myth) Is absurd. The Millennium is clearly stated in Chapter 20.

Events are described before, during and after it. It is called 1000 years.

Before it will occur the Judgment of the living nations, The Resurrection of the righteous dead and the binding of Satan in the pit.
During it Christ will reign with his saints.
After it Satan will be released to rebel against God. Followed by his judgment and the judgment of the Great White Throne.

You will be telling me next this is all figurative! Symbolic!

And you refer to The Kingdom of Heaven as the land of OZ. LOL

Your comments re the persecution of Christians. You might be right I'm not sure. Persecution usually follows revival l think.


However, thank you too for you kind words Trevor, I'm so glad that even if we differ we can still respect and love one another in the Lord Jesus.

God bless you.

Steve

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 15/08/2006 00:46
Ah dear steve

I did not say Revelation is 'historical' I said the book was written to encourage persecuted Christians during the first century hsistorical setting and uses many symbols to describe Giod's ongoing (past present and future) victory over the powers of darkness and to use it like an almanac is incorrect. The Reformed principals of interpretation as set out by me are well known and avoid the pitfalls of the wild and wacky speculations propounded within the last 100 years or so following the introduction of millennarianism by Darby, Schofield and some of the early pentecostals. and their interpretation of the Scriptures.

your quote

'The things which shall be hereafter. (This is prophetic and refers to events that will occur after the church era.'

Where is there any evidence that the book refers to 'after the church era'? I cant find anything in the new testamant which suggests anything other than the judgement and eternal state happening after the church era! Revelation was written for christians and the church to encourage them from 1st century to the return of the Lord and the final judgement and reminds us time and again the final outcome is Jesus wins Satan loses! To suggest that the church all went to heaven with John in chap 4 is unwarranted and a confusing speculation..Also to remove all the glorious promises of God's work in and through the church and postpone them into some millennial myth period is simply wrong exegesis (in my opinion).

Nowhere have i suggested 'all these events happened duing the persection of nero' (and i'm not sure Nero was persecuted LOL) the symbolism of Revelation is pregnant with encouragement especially in times when the church is being persecuted both in nero's time and today where many churches are being persecuted by the stateall over the world.

my last point and this is not a 'prophecy' but a simple comment when I say that this country will be persecuting Christians within 5 years unless there is a major change politically in the UK and I will continue to declare the truths of the encouragement of Revelation to my fellow belivers for the here and now and not isolating it to the wonderful land of Oz or whatever you call the millennium.

take care brother Steve we can agree to difer whilst still enjoying the respect we have for each other!!

trevorofbude

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 14/08/2006 22:52
Hi, Missy,

I don't agree with Trevor.

The book of Revelation is prophetic not historical. No historical interpretation of Revelation is supportable.

In fact the Book of Revelation gives its own interpretation.

If we look at...

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Christ spoke to John to tell him that the vision he saw would have three parts.
1. The things which he has seen. (The Vision of Christ in glory)
2. The things which are. (The present message to the seven churches)
3. The things which shall be hereafter. (This is prophetic and refers to events that will occur after the church era)

My proposition is proved by...

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John uses the usual terms of before and after. Christ it giving a prophesy of events that will occur after the messages to the churches.

In Chapter 4-5 John records events in Heaven in which Christ receives the scroll written on.
Chapter 6 records the opening of the first six of scrolls seals.
(v17 says that the day of wrath is come. This day of wrath or the Day of The Lord is very well known in scripture and is described in Matthew 24)
Chapter 7 is the opening of the seventh seal. And the 144,000 witnesses are mentioned here. These men are the witnesses during the Tribulation. 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Verse 14 mentions the great tribulation which Christ spoke of in Matthew 24.
Chapter 8 is the angels beginning to sound their trumpets. The first trumpet brings down hail mixed with blood. (Those who believe this is historical have difficulty with this prophesy)
The second angel sounds and a mountain burning with fire is cast into the sea. (Again this has never happened yet!) The third part of all sea creatures die. These are horrendous days to come. Jesus said of this time that if God did not shorten these days no body would survive at all.
Those who say that this is historical find great difficulty in the Chapter 9 where it speaks of locusts from the pit who have power over men for five months. Clearly this has never happened yet in world history.
Chapter 11 describes the two witnesses that will testify to God for 1260 days. Then they shall be killed by the Beast and they will lie in the street unburied for three and a half days. Then they will come back to life. 11v11. before they ascend to heaven v12.

I could go on and on, its a great book but it speaks of the future.

We see the end of Idolatry Worship and the destruction of all opposition to Gods Messiah.
Chapter 19 Christ rides forth to conquer.
Chapter 20 Is the judgment of the Living Nations mentioned in Matthew 25. Satan is bound prior to the millennium v2. All the righteous dead of all ages are raised from the dead to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ reigns for 1,000 years from the throne of his father David. v4. After the 1,000 years Satan is released. v7. He leads a final revolt against Christ and is defeated finally. v10. Then God sets up the Great White Throne and all the unrighteous dead of all ages stand before God. v11.

Chapter 21. The new Jerusalem descends from heaven. And Christ gives closing blessings on those who read this prophesy and curses on those who detract from it. Then Christ says that he will come quickly.

So all these events happened during the persecution of Nero?

I don't think so.

God bless
Steve

From: Zerich Sent: 14/08/2006 17:27
See Revelation 14:1-5.

From: Missy Sent: 14/08/2006 17:35
Thanks for all replies. Look forward to steves.

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 14/08/2006 15:53
Just a general thought on the whole book of revelation

There are 3 recognised principles of interpretation of the Bible and if these three are applied to any passage a lot of the 'off the wall' ideas about understanding revelation are nipped in the bud.

It is a principle of interpretation that you always interpret the obscure by the clear and not the other way round so when you look at Revelation you can easily it is a book not intended to be taken literally because it is full of symbols that depict ideas.The picture of the risen Jesus in Chapter one would be grotesque if taken literally.

In chapters 2 and 3 the descriptions and rewards for the vaious churhces are all in symbolic form and the whole book continues in that way.

the second principle is to interpret a text in its context. That is you need to look at the events described in any book in the light of why it was written and to whom. Revelation was first written to Christians undergoing persecution at the end of the first century and its primary message was to them. It isnt an 'old moores' 'nostradamus' or 'da vinci' code almanac to speculate about countries and events in the 21st century but lays down principles that are timeless in term of God's protection of His people (the church) of the victory of Christ over Satan; of the church over the world; and of the servants of God over the powers of darkness.It tells of the new heavens and new earth whoich will last forever .

The third principle is to interpret the Old Testament in the cleaer light of the New. The Old was limited geopraphically to a small part of the Middle East where God was educating the owrld regarding his holiness grace and character and provides the basic education through the prophets as they looke dforward to the coming of the Christ and the establishment of the new Kingdom of God which transcends old testament geography and nationalism and extends throughout the world in the spiritual kingdom of the Church the prize for whom Jesus gave His life and the people prepared for eternal bliss from the foundatio on the world. Any theology that tries to dumb down Gods international and eternal purposes by limiting it to a small geographical area and a sepcial nationalistic group has no place in sound exegesis.

the 144,000 are a symbolic no depicting the wholeness and completeness of those jews who were are and will be saved and is seen in the context of a much greater part of Gods plan where a host from every kingdom tongue and nation would join them in celebrating the wonders of heaven.

a good link (subject to approval from the Managers) is ChristianCourier.com which provides a sound and biblical answer to the question Who are the 144,000 of Reveation 7 and 14. www.christiancourier.com

Sorry its such a long reply.

trevorofbude

From: Dunggate Sent: 14/08/2006 15:29
Very informative thank you Zee
Elaine

From: Zerich Sent: 14/08/2006 14:56
The 144,000 are all men. Also they are all Jews and unmarried.They are all saved, and are to give out the gospel to the world.They are to do the job the Israelites were to originally do.
Note one thing about your list of tribes. The tribe of Dan is missing.The reason for this is because the tribe of Dan was the first of the 12 tribes to go into idolatry. Deuteronomy 29:18-21 required that the name of anyone who introduced idolatry was to be blotted out.


The Jehovahs Witnesses DO teach that only 144,000 will go to heaven.

Guess what?(Just a little touch of information not related to the subject matter here) The Morman Church teaches that the only way a woman will get to heaven, is if her husband calls her there, by a special assigned name.

From: Missy (Original Message) Sent: 14/08/2006 12:06
2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God
4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
Rev7:2-4


My thoughts:

This states that 144.000 from the tribes of Israel were marked with the seal of God.


Tribe names:

5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


Why are these 144.000 specifically mentioned here?

What does it mean?


(Do the jehovahs witness' believe that only 144.000 people will go to heaven?)


MISSY.

Revelation 7: - 144.000
Jehovah Witness' say there is only 144,000 going to heaven
they work on this.
What are your thoughts.