FOCUS ON: Telling lies

From: Gilly Sent: 05/01/2006 19:46
Hiya Jane, what a brilliant question to open the debate more, and so good to have you post. I have missed your input which I admire and respect very much.
There are times in our lives when we as Christians have to be honest and put our hands up and admit we would lie....I know I would if I had been in the same ethical situation Rahab was in....and although telling lies would normally go against every value I have....I would lie my little head of off it meant saving the life of myself or my loved ones or meant being obedient to my faith. In volatile or dangerous situations, especially, telling a lie could literally mean the difference between life or death.
Would God approve even though we are commanded to tell the truth? I think that if the situation requires you lie for a good reason and act in obedient faith despite our own flaws, God would approve of these 'situation ethics'. Rahab lied twice yet God blessed her by sparing her and her household from death.
Hi Helen, I understand the point you are making about white lies, but I believe equally there are times when it is also justified to not give a totally truthful answer, and it goes beyond the term tactful. We have to treat others feelings, especially those with very damaged emotions and egos, with tender love and care. It takes much wisdom to answer some of these fragile people without further bruising a very damaged heart. Here the situation requires that we don't answer their question as such, just reply with a different perspective.
And when it comes to lies that are no concern of mine personally, I have to confess I am outspoken....and I would have to speak out all the more if it was something big I felt strongly enough about.
Hi Trevor, as usual what a wise answer. We have come to expect nothing less from you.....I wonder if you are writing a little journal about all these wonderful pearls of wisdom with such Godly perspective you have ....if not, why not!!!!
gbu
Gilly

From: Sóft_Answér Sent: 03/01/2006 22:44
So what about Rahab?

Was she wrong to lie when questioned about the whereabouts of the spies?

God bless

Jane
From: Missy Sent: 04/01/2006 11:22
Good question, but something I have little knowledge about so Im not even going to try and comment, however if i get time I shall look this up and see what my opinion is.

MISSY.

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 04/01/2006 14:21
Rahab?

It is clear that we are to refrain from lies but two comments:-

1. Rahab's lies were not called anything else but lies so do not excuse our lies (white black grey or anything in between). She is merely commended for her faith. There is no instant sanctification but it is a gradual process.

2. God is Sovereign and does not allow our errors and sins (which are our responsibility) to thwart His purposes. He can cope with our mistakes but by grace He moves us along the path of truth and faithfulness step by step.

hope that helps

trevorofbude (a forgiven liar!!)
From: Missy Sent: 05/01/2006 12:40
Great post trevor, thanks!

From: Dunggate Sent: 16/12/2005 13:14
This is a long post but necessary.
TROLLS
With the wide use of internet, many can be deceived. Most Group Managers are aware of these Trolls.
We wish to draw attention to the fact that there are people out there that decieve.
Internet deception ranges from childish games to major fraud,with lots of variations in between.

Beware the Troll (one who loves trouble.........)
To "troll" means to allure, to fish, to entice or to bait. An
internet troll is someone who fishes for people's confidence
and,once found, exploits it.
Whilst the vast majority of internet users are bona fide,
there are undoubtedly some trolls out there.
Q: How much damage can an internet troll achieve?
Cause minor irritation to some people
Cause major upset to some people.
There are many other types of Troll who decieves and obtain money.
I would want us to concentrate as a Christian Group what we need to be aware of.
Mind games of a Troll...Trolls have no concern for the feelings of the people with whom they deal.
They are often manipulative, clever and approach their trolling with the same degree
of planning and research as those seeking financial gain, or the same
competitiveness as a serious chess player.

Internet deception relies on exploiting trust and building
confidence, and the rewards can be financial or psychologicalm
Before you invest your trust in someone - either emotional or
financial trust - you should verify the bona fide nature of the
other party from multiple known, reliable and independent
sources. "Trust and verify".

The term "troll" can mean a number of different things, but in
essence, a troll is a person who aims to have 'pleasure' at your
expense. There are two main types of trolls:
people who are psychologically disturbed,
and seek to feel good by making other list members feel bad.
This is a sort of "psycho troll", whose deception involves deceiving themselves as well as others.
In this respect, they are no different to the sorts of
people we meet in everyday life who are disturbed -
some of them are easy to spot, and others aren't.
Such people may even use their real names on the internet,
and they may not even realise that they are "trolling" because it is all subconscious,
people who pretend to be someone that they are not -
they create personae that you think are real, but they know is fictitious.

The "Tactical" - This is where the troller takes the game
more seriously, creates a credible persona with which to provoke the
list, and uses recognised techniques or tactics to gain the
confidence and support of individuals on the list. Provocation is
subtle and invidious, so spotting this type of troll is not easy,
because the persona is credible, and off-list email exchanges have
caused you to believe that this person is genuine and trustworthy.

"Strategic" - This is a very serious form of game,
involving the production of an overall strategy that can take months
or years to develop. It can also involve a number of people acting
together in order to invade a list. Once a list is infested, it can
be nigh impossible to work out who is a troll and who is bona fide.

- "Domination" - This is where the trollers' strategy
extends to the creation and running of apparently bona-fide mailing
lists. In such circumstances, their payoff may be the knowledge that
they are dominating the emotional lives of list members, and is
perhaps one of the ultimate forms of deceit that can be achieved.
claiming to be a child but writingwith an adult style;
claiming to be adult, but writing with a
childish grammatical construction)
also note that trolls often seem to use free email services (such as
hotmail.com) or have email addresses ending in .edu.
However, trolls could be virtually anyone, and the email address is no guide
as to whether the persona is a bona fide user or not.
To counteract playtime trolls, the best action is to ignore them. If
you are convinced they are trolls, then you can advise the list
manager. However, if other group members respond to the suspected
troll's posts, then you may have to consider some of the responses
outlined for tactical or strategic trolls.
Tactical Trolls
Tactical trolls take much more care and effort over the creation of
their personae. Such trolls are likely to be seen as long term list
members, and have the confidence and trust of the bona fide people
on the mailing list. They use many of the techniques listed for
Playtime Trolls, but in addition:
They engage in off list email dialogues to gain the confidence and
trust of influential individuals on the list.
They are friendly and humorous in the posts, to put you at ease with
their persona.
They have a well-thought-through story such that the persona seems
to be very real. They will give apparently personal and intimate
information, particularly in off list emails.
They win trust by giving trust. For example, they may hint at
something confidential on-list, but then only reveal the full story
to someone off-list. By bringing someone into their confidence, they
create a feeling of confidence towards them by the individual's
concerned.
In off list emails, they win allies and support for some of their
views. Their offlist emails are subtly manipulative.
To counteract playtime trolls, the best action is to ignore them. If
you are convinced they are trolls, then you can advise the list
manager.
ITS NOT ALL BAD NEWS
For most users are friendly and genuine. The importance is staying close to God and allow the Holy Spirit to lead you.
Elaine.

From: Missy Sent: 16/12/2005 15:56
Great post Elaine.

From: Yalith3 Sent: 14/12/2005 16:33
There is no freedom in a lie.
From: Janet-05 Sent: 15/12/2005 15:31
I must admit that I was once led to lie to very close friends through another group of people (not christians) although my friends were. These people made the lies look so small and innocent in a way at first, then before I knew it, it had escalated to something much bigger, When I realised how bad it had got I started to feel really bad because I knew my friends really cared about me and most of all trusted me. It was this thought that prompted me to go to a lady friend and tell her the truth, we talked for a long time and she informed the others, they never even got angry with me, just asked some questions to, I guess unravel some of the lies and put things right. They prayed with me and suported me loads. It was such a relief to get this off my chest. I would advise anyone is this situation to just "own up", you will feel so much better and free.

Luv Janet.
From: Dunggate Sent: 15/12/2005 18:35
Thank you for sharing this with us Janet it takes a great deal of courage to admitting to telling lies. We need to be sensible who we divulge and open our heart to and thankfully you were wise and had the prayer and supported needed.

We know that satan is the father of lies and he binds us up. I am so glad you have now, that release and feel better.
Love Elaine.

From: Dunggate Sent: 14/12/2005 00:01
Thank you so much Helen for your input..........
would be interesting to hear what others think of white lies is there such a thing........
and those experiences where people really don't care and set out to lie without any concern of the consequences, where people have been hurt badly.
Elaine.

From: Rock Child of God Sent: 10/12/2005 17:13
I agree!
My son (the backslidden one) lies all the time. It really makes my blood boil, I can tell (and so can his grandma) that he is as he cannot look us in the face!
My other son whom is Autistic, cannot lie, ever and if he see's someone who he thinks is lying he goes mad!
So you can imagine what our house is like! Arguments, praise Jesus for my kids, drive me insane but I wouldn't live without them.

I think this is a great subject as there is the myth of the "white" lie.
I guess that is on a par with "white" magick. Both magicks are from satan.
All lies, even "white" ones are fleshly and a sin.
Even when you ask or are asked the fatal question "Does my bum look big in this...?" etc, yes be truthful - but tactful!
The Bible says "There is a time to speak and a time to refrain from speaking" [Ecc 3] so if it's something really bad, that doesn't concern me, then I keep my mouth shut - unless the Holy Spirit prompts me to say something or I am asked.

Still a long way to go, bring on the rapture.

God Bless all, Helen xxx

From: Missy Sent: 10/12/2005 14:13
My Thoughts.


I think LIES is a good topic for us as christians to discuss, sometimes we do it without considering the damage it will do.

For example, if you have a great friend you trust 100% and you consider their friendship priceless then lying is a BIG mistake because it breaks trusts and hurts heaps and friendships although may be slow to heal, but can they ever be the same again?

Not everyone does it by choice, some may feel pressured into doing it to please someone else, if you be honest about your situation then a true friend will understand, so I would say to anyone in this situation to just BE HONEST!

MISSY.

From: Missy (Original Message) Sent: 10/12/2005 14:11

LIES.

The damage they can do.

I ruin without killing.I tear down homes, wreck lives, and break hearts. I have no respest for truth or justice, no mercy for the defenceless.
You will find me in the pews of the pious and in the haunts of the unholy. I am wily, cunning, malicious - and I gather strength with age. I feed on good and bad alike. My victims are numerous as the sands of the sea, and often as innocent.
I never forgive and I seldom forget.
My name is LIES!

From: Dunggate Sent: 10/12/2005 14:07
TELLING LIES

Is there such a thing as little white lies or are they all damaging.?