Focus: CATHOLICS Anti Christ or CHRISTIANS?

From: Dogknox Sent: 23/05/2006 18:15
Reply to Openairpreacherman... You said... The concept of having a spiritual mother is both unbiblical and was found in the heathen religions

I reply.. Opanair...... ?????? Spirtitual Mother is NOT biblical????

How about Adam and Eve??? Adam is Mans first Father .. Eve is Mans FIRST MOTHER!!!!!

How about Jesus the second ADAM... And "His bride" the Church!!!!!!!
What happenes after the wedding ... Does the marriage not have to be consummated to be a true marriage???
Can Jesus be married to the Church without Children???
Mary was a virgin SO the bride of Christ must be a "Virgin" !!!! Jesus was born from a pure Mother.....

It also means the Body of Christ must also be born from a Pure Mother...!

How can Jesus' "head" be born only from Mary with out his body??? ..... It Can't happen!!!
His Body also comes from a pure Mother...... The Church!
"We" the Body of Christ are born or "Re-born" by the Church!
She; "The Church" gives birth to the Body of Christ through baptism yet she the Church remains pure and Holy... Like Mary a Virgin!!!!

The Church waits for her lover to return for her!!! Openairpreacherman... All Biblical!!!!

I add ... God is Father... How can it be?
Fathers need Children to gain the title "Father"!!!!

I don't know about "YOU" but other then worms "ALL need a Mother, to have Children"...
If God is our Spiritual Father..... we need a "Spiritual Mother"... Or the word Father is not proper...

You Openairpreacherman want to call God "Our Replicator" don't you???!!!! Just to avoid the need for "Church"!!!

The word "Father" denotes "Mother" or the word "Father" is wrong!!!!

Up until Martin Luther all Christians had a Mother... The Church!!!
Now Protestants are looking for a way to explain away "Mother" without rewriting the words of Jesus it can't be done!!!!
I point out to you your predicament "Father no Mother" instead of saying to me "right we don't now have a mother..." You respond with "It is not biblical!!!!"

Sorry but you are wrong .. It is biblical and it is also the way man and animals reproduce (other then the odd worm and low life) Man is Born of woman... Not hatched!!!
The Church is a Bride she must be female because Jesus is Male!!!! Or are you saying Jesus is married to a worm!!!!!

Dogknox

From: Missy Sent: 23/05/2006 10:09
Dog & Gilly,
To say that Christ is in you and then write the way you do just about proves anything but.


We are children of the family of God. Of course it is very easy for me to understand fully what you are saying here, but unfortunately those who do not accept the church have no understanding of the teachings.....teachings that are given to us in Holy Scripture.


Teachings from a catholic bible version Gilly?

How dare you assume we do not accept the church nor understand its teachings. Why have you hung around here so long and built friendships if thats your opinion of us?


Elaine has added lots of testimonies here, it would be nice to see some from you both, show us some actions instead of just ranting words that Christ is really in your lives.


MISSY.

From: Dunggate Sent: 23/05/2006 09:45
Matchless Post Steve,
Easy to read and understand and taken from the Authorised Version.
Thank you for replying to Dogknox post 38 I read no further than the opening 2 lines where he insensitively replied to my message 37 posting A short "I have no Mother my mother is dead."

I need say no more on this than the fruits of Holy spirit in ones life, first of all would show love (John 13:34 )
Reply to Dunggate...

Catholics have a Father God, A Mother Church, and A Brother Jesus...

Catholics don't come from a broken home... Like you...Father NO Mother...


Post 39 Gilly Excellent posting DogknoxWe are children of the family of God. Of course it is very easy for me to understand fully what you are saying here but unfortunately those who do not accept the church have no understanding of the teachings

STATEMENT
I am born again of the spirit of God. Baptised in his Holy Spirit.
Baptised in Water as an public announcement that I follow Jesus.
I am accepted in the beloved, I am part of the body of Christ.....THE CHURCH
He is coming back for me........ His Bride
I read study and pray. The Holy spirit leads me into all truths.
I have been used of God many times to reveal The Christ to the lost, who have found salvation through my obedience to the Holy spirit.
I have written testimonies of my salvation, and some of the many miracles.
I have an ongoing testimony of Christ Jesus working in my life,
all praise, glory and honour to his matchless name.
Acts 13:47For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Elaine (aka Dunggate building up the walls ) Neh 2:12-18

SOME OF MY TESTIMONIES. can be found on our Testimony Forum Board

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 23/05/2006 07:09
The concept of having a spiritual mother is both unbiblical and was found in the heathen religions. (Along with female priests) It is not a biblical concept. The Babylonian mother and child god, who was called 'queen of heaven' is the precursor of the Romanish dogma of Mary worship.

Scripture teaches that Mary was a sinner.
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

That she deferred to Christ on many occasions.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

That she had no more authority in Christs life than any other christian.

Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The elevation of Mary to a position of worship is idolatry.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

She has no mediation position with God.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Only Jesus is our mediator. To even suggest that Mary is a mediator is blaspheme

From: Gilly Sent: 23/05/2006 00:41
Excellent posting Dogknox.

We are children of the family of God. Of course it is very easy for me to understand fully what you are saying here, but unfortunately those who do not accept the church have no understanding of the teachings.....teachings that are given to us in Holy Scripture.
The Blessed Virgin Mary IS the Mother of God and the Mother of our Church. She is Blessed among women.
Yesterday I received the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. I ate the flesh of Jesus and drank His blood as the supernatural of The Holy Spirit transforming the consecrated bread and wine into literally His Body and His Blood. Yes I do have Jesus inside me. This Sacrament is His gift, a celebration to all who believe in Him as the ongoing, sustaining, Spiritual food that sustains us, strengthens us and leads us into holy living. He lives in us.
No time to post lengthier reply as am up early for work again in morning, but very interesting that both threads SALVATION and the catholics/Antichristian thread reached the crucial question of 'WHO IS YOUR MOTHER'? at the same time. Is this a God -incidence I wonder!!!!

I now ask again to others.... If God is your Father and Jesus your Brother.....'Who is your Mother?'

Gilly

From: Dogknox Sent: 22/05/2006 21:34
Reply to Dunggate...

Catholics have a Father God, A Mother Church, and A Brother Jesus...

Catholics don't come from a broken home... Like you...Father NO Mother...

Because Catholics Are part of "The BODY"... Christs Body... this means like Jesus .. Mary is our Mother...ALSO!!!!
The Mother of "The Church"!
The Mother of "The Body"!!! MARY!!!

Because Jesus "Honors Mary" We Catholics; we the body; also "Honor Mary"!
The Body does what the head tells it to do!!
We Honor Mary because we follow Jesus, our head!!

We honor Mary because the bible honors Mary.

Luke 1:29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God.

Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my God should come to me?

You see Dunggate... Catholics believe Jesus, the Word made flesh, Catholics have Faith in Jesus, the bible!
What the bible says we believe... Example ... "This IS my body", and "This IS my Blood"
Dunggate Qustion what part of the word "IS" don't you understand???
Dunggate.. Jesus said Eat this.. Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
Question Dunggate... "Do this" means what?
It means "Eat this" my BODY!
As you eat my body remember me!!!!
How could it be symbolic if Jesus just said it was his body?
The "Remembrance in "Remember Me" is to remember Jesus and how he loves!!!
He gave us he body.... And he still gives us his body at every Mass.

The Priest does not kill Jesus over and over at every Mass... NO Jesus died once, 2000 years ago...
We Catholics are still eatting the Sacrificial Lamb....
The Lamb is still being consumed, the meal is ongoing for the last 2000 years.
The meal is still being eaten!

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Jesus is the Lamb .... The Jews at the first Passover had to eat the sacrifice or they died....
Jesus was at the "Passover" Meal and said...
Luke 22:In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

See Dunggate... Jesus made a NEW.. "Covenant" the old has passed away.. the New one now is... Jesus is the New sacrifice.
He is the New Lamb offering.
A new sin offering... all sin offerings must be "Bloody" a grain offering never works to remove sin..
Sin brings death so the offering must die in place of the person ..
An eye for an eye type of thing!
But eather Old or New the sacrifice still has to be eaten!!!!!!!!!

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
John 6:48 I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Dunggate... How do you no Jesus is inside of you? Are you sure? Catholic KNOW Jesus is inside of them because "We eat His living Body" we drink His "Sacred Blood".
Jesus can't die again because each is to die just ONE TIME! We can't die ether if we remain part of the vine! Remain in and with Christ we live!!!

Dunggate... Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead?
Catholics believe; and if His Blood is in "The Body"... The Body will live forever! Jesus' Blood is ALIVE!!!
The Bible tells us "The Body (Church) is guided by the Holy Spirit"!
The Church has life, the gates of hell cannot prevail .. Jesus CAN'T die again!!!

Dogknox

Dunggate You are right in saying Mary is NOT your Mother...
You must be part of her Family!!!
All Generations will call Her blessed.... All the Family will call Mary blessed!

From: Dunggate Sent: 22/05/2006 17:46
Dognox you asked
Question Dunggate "Who is your Mother"???
My mother is dead I have no living mother.
Elaine.

From: Dogknox Sent: 22/05/2006 17:40
Reply to Dunggate... You said John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. It does not say through the permission of Mary my mother.

I reply All must enter Through Jesus.... Jesus will ask you at the door to heaven... "Did you Love" If the answer is yes, then he will say "Come on in" After all, why would He throw himself into hell...? "God is Love"!!!!!!

Mary said " All generations will call me blessed"..... Elaine ...Question..... Do you call "Mary Blessed"?

To be part of any "Generation" you first must be part of "The Family" ....! The Catholic is the only group of peoples that can say "All Generations" because the Catholic Church has roots back to Christ and Mary! The first Protestant Church does not arrive until the Fifteen hundreds...

If you don't "Call Mary Blessed" or if you say "Mary is NOT my Mother" you are saying "I am not part of the "Generations"" then this means you are not part of Her Family and this in turn means "Jesus is NOT your brother!!!!"

If you are part of "The Family" Why don't you LOVE Mary your Mother????? If you say you are Part of the Body of Christ, then you MUST honor Mary because thet is what Jesus MUST do!!!!! It is a commandment and Jesus the author of the Commandments can't break them or "He would not be God" (God can't sin)

1 Kings 2:19 When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king's mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
20 "I have one small request to make of you," she said. "Do not refuse me."
The king replied, "Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you."

Dunggate Notice Solomon Bowed down to His Mother Bathsheba!!!!

Dunggate Notice Solomon (The wisest Man to ever have lived) brought a "Throne" into the throne room and He placed his Mother to his right hand!!!!

Dunggate Notice Solomon tells his mother "I will not refuse your requests"

I note Dunggate.... Jesus is also "The Son of David" Like Solomon He sits on "Davids Throne in heaven" I suggest to you Bathshebas throne is there also, to the right hand of Jesus!!!!!

Jesus also like Solomon the WISE will not refuse "MARYS Requests"!!! Or is Solomon more wise then Jesus!!!????

Dunggate Question: Are you more wise then Solomon???

Solomon Bows to His Mother..... What does this tell you about the relationship between Jesus and Mary?

Mary bathed Jesus, she fed him, hugged him, bounced God on her knee.... Mary kissed God and loved God as only a Mother could!!!!! Mary is special, Mary is in Heaven still caring for "The Body of her son!!!!!

Dogknox

Mary MY MOTHER pray for me!!!

Question Dunggate "Who is your Mother"???

Quote:
It does not say through the permission of Mary my mother.
Elaine.
.............................................

Reply to andi_pandi20 You said... they pray to mary , thats idolitry surely?
I answer... We Ask Mary our Mother to ask Her son.... All sons must Honor there Mothers ..It is a commandment .. Jesus MUST listen to Mary Jesus can't break a "Commandment" Jesus can't sin!!
I add... Protestants Communion with a Symbol and that IS Idolitry !!! The bread and wine is just Symbolic, (Protestant) yet they communion with it!!!!!

From: Dunggate Sent: 22/05/2006 07:35
Dogknox, I do not have the time to go through this lengthy post right now but reading your opening post Message 34 I disagree. The bible Clearly says...........
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
It does not say through the permission of Mary my mother.
Elaine.
.............................................

Reply to andi_pandi20 You said... they pray to mary , thats idolitry surely?
I answer... We Ask Mary our Mother to ask Her son.... All sons must Honor there Mothers ..It is a commandment .. Jesus MUST listen to Mary Jesus can't break a "Commandment" Jesus can't sin!!
I add... Protestants Communion with a Symbol and that IS Idolitry !!! The bread and wine is just Symbolic, (Protestant) yet they communion with it!!!!!

From: Dogknox Sent: 22/05/2006 00:17
Reply to andi_pandi20 You said... they pray to mary , thats idolitry surely?
I answer... We Ask Mary our Mother to ask Her son.... All sons must Honor there Mothers ..It is a commandment .. Jesus MUST listen to Mary Jesus can't break a "Commandment" Jesus can't sin!!
I add... Protestants Communion with a Symbol and that IS Idolitry !!! The bread and wine is just Symbolic, (Protestant) yet they communion with it!!!!!

You said... they call their priest father. please refer to matthew 23:9
I Reply... Matt 23:7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.

Rabbi is a Hebrew word for "Doctor" You are not suppose to call anyone "DOCTOR"!!! Like "DOCTOR" Billy Graham!!!! Every Protestant preacher calls himself "Doctor"!!!!!

ALSO.. Acts 21:40, 22:1 "Paul stood on the steps and motioned with his hand to the people; when all was quiet, he addressed them in Hebrew, `My brothers and fathers, listen to what I am about to say to you in my defense'.

1 cor 4:14 "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus".

1 Tim 1:18 "This charge I commit to you, Timothy, my son".

1 John 2:13 "I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. . . . I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning".

Paul calls himself "FATHER" and he is a father.. A spiritual Father.. He guides His Children "Spiritually" Same thing a Catholic Priests does today... For the past 2000 years the Church has followed Pauls example!!!!

You said... they confess their sins to a priest, how can a man give forgiveness? only God can

I reply .... John 20:21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Notice Jesus is sending the Apostles to Forgive sins. The Apostles were empowered by the Holy Spirit... "To Forgive SINS!!!!

The Apostles replaced one of the number with pulling straws.

The Catholic Bishops have Lineage back the the Apostles through "Laying on of hands"

The Pope can trace His Lineage back to Peter the First Pope!!!... How could the Apostles have forgiven the sins of the people unless the people first "Confessed Them"????

The Didache... "Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas "You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch "For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

"For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop" (ibid., 8).

andi_pandi20... Question If the early Church Confessed their sins to a Priest why don't you? If they believed Jesus is in the Bread and wine why don't you? If the Early Church partitioned the Church in heaven for help why don't you? .. I Add you better not ask your friends to pray for you .. "Because you are suppose to go directly to Jesus!!!!!" At least we Know Mary is in Heaven your friends might not get there!!!

Dogknox

From: gem_SMILE_JESUS_LOVES_U2 Sent: 10/03/2006 09:22
hey
i went to a cathloc school, and i personally think they r still christians they just have different views on things, not all of which i understand or agree with but they still love God and live for him- in my experience anywayz
Gemz x
From: andi_pandi20 Sent: 19/05/2006 20:00
a different view? they pray to mary , thats idolitry surely?
they call their priest father. please refer to matthew 23:9
they confess their sins to a priest, how can a man give forgiveness? only God can and we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus not how many hail mary's you do. im sure i could refer to many other examples but i think you've got the idea

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 09/03/2006 23:35
The first scripture quoted says...

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

This passage says that it is the four beasts and the twenty four elders had the bowls containing the prayers of the saints. So it is the four beasts and the twenty four elders that have these prayers, not the saints that have passed on - they don't have access to these prayers.

So the saints in heaven are not interceding or offering our prayers to God - in this passage.

On the second point while these is nothing wrong in asking others to pray for us, obviously. This is not quite what the Roman church advocates. The Roman church encourages believers to pray, to the saints, to ask them to pray on their behalf, as if they had more merit with God. This means that they do act as mediators in this sense. We may request prayers from each other - anytime, but, if l only asked you to pray for me and didn't pray myself directly to God as many Roman Christians do, then l would be making those who pray for me a mediator.

There is no scripture directing us to ask dead Christians to pray for us. Nor is there any indication that they do actually pray for us!

The next scripture quoted said...

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

This passage does not say that the saints in heaven offer the prayers of the living to God. It says that, an angel, took a golden censer having the incense which are the prayers of the saints and offered them to God.

So both these passages speak of four beasts, twenty four elders and an angel presenting our prayers to God. They do not describe saints presenting our prayers to God, nor does it describe how we should pray to them to ask them to pray for us.



Steve

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 09/03/2006 23:35
The first scripture quoted says...

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

This passage says that it is the four beasts and the twenty four elders had the bowls containing the prayers of the saints. So it is the four beasts and the twenty four elders that have these prayers, not the saints that have passed on - they don't have access to these prayers.

So the saints in heaven are not interceding or offering our prayers to God - in this passage.

On the second point while these is nothing wrong in asking others to pray for us, obviously. This is not quite what the Roman church advocates. The Roman church encourages believers to pray, to the saints, to ask them to pray on their behalf, as if they had more merit with God. This means that they do act as mediators in this sense. We may request prayers from each other - anytime, but, if l only asked you to pray for me and didn't pray myself directly to God as many Roman Christians do, then l would be making those who pray for me a mediator.

There is no scripture directing us to ask dead Christians to pray for us. Nor is there any indication that they do actually pray for us!

The next scripture quoted said...

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

This passage does not say that the saints in heaven offer the prayers of the living to God. It says that, an angel, took a golden censer having the incense which are the prayers of the saints and offered them to God.

So both these passages speak of four beasts, twenty four elders and an angel presenting our prayers to God. They do not describe saints presenting our prayers to God, nor does it describe how we should pray to them to ask them to pray for us.

Steve

From: Dunggate Sent: 09/03/2006 15:08
Thank you Gilly for your input on this thread, no need at all to apologise for length of post.
Love in Jesus Elaine.

From: Gilly Sent: 09/03/2006 10:52
Hiya,
I have so missed being able to join in with some excellent debating this past week....and I missed you all too.
Agreed also, but Catholic Intercession of the Saints is anything BUT necromacy, and I'm hoping that this pasting from a Catholic website will help you understand the Catholic practise as instructed by Scripture.

Praying to the Saints


The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.


Can They Hear Us?



One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.


One Mediator



Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.


"No Contact with the dead"



Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Directly to Jesus"

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.


In Heaven and On Earth



The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Sorry its a bit long, but it seems neccessary that you can properly understand why we ask the Saints for intercession, and important to me as a Christian that people do not accuse me of practising necromacy. The difference is as big as Heaven and earth, and not differentiated in its full context by Protestants.
Gilly

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 09/03/2006 08:54
Agreed Dunggate.

Steve

From: Dunggate Sent: 08/03/2006 11:19
We read in 1 Sam 28: 7-18
How Saul consulted a woman who brought up Samuel from the dead to speak to him and in reading we see that Samuel told him that The Lord had departed from him. He rebuked Saul for disquietening his spirit. I have brought some more scriptures which will throw more light on this subject.
Both of my parents have died. But I seek the living saints to lift me up to the throne of God remember what Jesus have taught us that He is the Way the truth and the life that no man comes to the Father but through him.
I am not concerned with the denomination or even cult. I pray wherever we find ourselves we take on: Our duty is to seek what God says in his word to us the bible .
Love in Jesus Elaine.

The Old Testament term for communicating with the dead
is "necromancy." (Deuteronomy 18:11, also read verse 10) It is
forbidden by God: "There shall not be found among you... For whoever
does these things is detestable to the Lord" (an "abomination," KJV).

Also see: 1 Samuel 28:3-20 Isaiah 8:19-22.
The punishment for contacting the dead is very severe, if not
repented of.
1 Sam 28: 7-18
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David: 18because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Am'alek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 08/03/2006 09:08
There are a number of issues to be discussed in relation to this topic.

Are the scriptures alone taken as the guide for faith and practise or are the traditions of the Roman church taken as authority?

Did Christs death make a full and unrepeated atoement for sin?

Is obedience to the Roman Pontiff nessasary for salvation?

Is attendance at the Roman mass nessasary to salvation?

Is being a member of the Roman church nessasary to salvation?


While christians on a personal level might have fellowship in Christ at some degree the differences between the Roman church and Protestant churches are no small thing.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Catholic.html

From: Missy Sent: 09/01/2006 19:44
Gilly,
I can see why people would talk to their loved ones to help them grieve perhaps? But pray to them?

Also, don't catholics pray for their loved ones when they are in purgatory?
The bible does not mention this, so where did it come from?

MISSY.

From: Gilly Sent: 08/01/2006 20:58
Hi Trevor,
Nearly three quarters of the world's Christians DO practise asking for the intercession of the Saints, so there are a pretty good number of us out there... including Catholic, Anglican and eastern Orthodox churches, and we are given much instruction on this in God's Word. An excellent library resource that may help yourself and others to understand why we do is www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp It has numerous Scripture references which is why I have included the link and it does seem to explain in a very easy to understand format many of your questions.

Now, when it comes to conversation with our loved ones who have died, I have a sure knowledge that those who died saved are indeed in Heaven with the Lord....all Christians of all denominations have this assurance. When we have coversations with them.....which is natural to do so after the mourning of their death when, we come to accept that though they are no longer here with us on earth, we will always remember them in our hearts and memories, and it is by talking ABOUT them and TO them.....they are not forgotten......we keep their MEMORY alive and remain spiritually bonded to them in our faith and love for them.
The big difference in asking the saints in the company of the Lord in Heaven for intercession and praying DIRECTLY to God.....is that our relationship with God IS alive and He talks back to us. It is a two way conversation....a LIVING relationship.......but with the saints (which includes our loved ones) who are already IN Heaven, we can only be guided by how their words and their works impacted our lives whilst they lived, and rely that they will hear and add our prayers to theirs as they are in God's company already. This process actually brings COMFORT to us as well and strengthens our own faith.
Trevor, hope my understandings as a mature Christian of over 50 years and the practises of the Catholic faith have given you some insight. To be honest I cannot remember a time when I wasn't a Christian....no road to Damascus experience for me, but I became a Catholic in my young adult life and much as I love to enjoy worship in my fellow associates chosen denominational churches, it is the Catholic practise that lifts me, brings me closely into God's presence and helps me to grow spiritually.
gbu
Gilly

From: Missy Sent: 08/01/2006 20:12
But why not just cut out this "Middle man" and ask the Boss himself?

Thats what I don't get.

MISSY.

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 08/01/2006 19:38
Hi Missy

there's enough sins already for us to find I just think its unnecessary but not serious.

Hi Gilly

Without looking at the Greek I cannot be sure if its the same word for sleep but I can see how you might interpret 1 Cor 11 . My background would bring me to the conclusion that Paul is referring to the serious impact of a wrong attitude to communion has severe consequences in tems of sickness or even death. it is at least debatable whether the sleep referred to in the pasages in Corintians (and for that matter in Thess refer to death or rest).

I totally agree on the need to pray for one another and sharing our burdens with those around us who know and undersatnd and can help our situation but whether those who have died and are awaiting the resurrection can help I am not convinced from Scripture.

In my situation I have yet to come across anyone who prays to saints so have never needed to think it through, but then I've only been Christian 50 years!!

every blessing

trevorofbude

From: Gilly Sent: 08/01/2006 12:58
Hi Trevor,
The interpretation of those 'who have fallen asleep' refered to in 1Corintians is not a literal translation to mean those who have died are sleeping.
If I can explain 1 Cor.11v23 the verse just preceding the first Scripture you quote, is Our Lord's instructions to us ,especially of the Catholic faith, about the Holy Eucharist...the partaking of the Body and Blood of Jesus. Catholics do not partake of Communion unless they have brought to mind their sins and confessed them, thus justifying their walk in Christ. To take Communion without having confessed our sin we are told is a sin that eats and drinks judgement upon ourselves.....
1Cor11v27-29
'Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognising the body of the Lord eats judgement upon himself'.
1Cor11v30 therefore is refering to those who have become weak and sick SPIRITUALLY...not literally....equally .....'and a number of you who have FALLEN ASLEEP' refers to those who are still sinning and are no longer SPIRITUALLY ALERT.....
1Thess 5 v7-11 makes this very clear......
' For those who SLEEP, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that whether we are AWAKE or ASLEEP....(Spiritually inactive), we may live together with him.
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact that you are doing.'
To follow through on your thinking where you state it is unnecessary to ask anyone other than Jesus to intercede for us.......yes I agree......but equally Jesus Himself instructs us to pray for one another. There are so many Scriptures of The New Testament where He instructs us to pray. I shall bring just a few to this post......
James5v16.....'Therefore confess your sins .to each other and pray for each other that you may be healed.'
2Cor1v11
Rev5v8
Rev8v3
I don't think we need to concern ourselves that those in Heaven will not understand our native tongues......Pentecost and the Scriptures about Jesus sending this Gift of the Spirit makes it clear that all will understand....the language of God's Holy Spirit. So whether we agree or not that it is necessary to pray for one another the fact is that The Lord instructs us to....and we obey Him.
Hope this answers your question too missy.
God Bless
Gilly

From: Missy Sent: 08/01/2006 11:46
Unnecessary to ask them or a sin to ask them trevor?