Focus: CATHOLICS Anti Christ or CHRISTIANS?

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 07/01/2006 23:07

Hi Gilly.

As far as I can find in the Bible the status of departed believers is described in a number of passges says sleep waiting for the return of Jesus.

I cannot see any occasion where after the asecension of Jesus when He opened a way for us to be raised from the dead those on earth are encouraged to ask those who had died to pray for them. It would mean that after death there would be an awareness of sin in the saints (which might make the wait for heaven quite an unpleasant experience.

I quote from the NIV

1COR 11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

1COR 15:6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.

1COR 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

1COR 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

1COR 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--

1THESS 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

1THESS 4:14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

1THESS 4:15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Similarly I can find no case where need anyone but Jesus who is forever interceding on behalf of the saints (ie true believers).

In my understanding we dont need anyone more than Jesus and we have immediate access to the Father because of His death and resurrection.

As you say its unnecessary to ask the saints or Mary to intercede for us and I wonder how they will understand all our various languages and concepts because they are people who would have no comprehension of say English in their lives here and until the resurrection of the body and th judgement we dont seem to have any Biblical evidence to encourage these practices.

Still there are far more serious issues that we face and I wouldnt want this helpful thread to be bogged down with this side issue.

trevorofbude

From: Gilly Sent: 07/01/2006 21:59
You and I are also saints and we KNOW FOR SURE that because WE are saved we WILL go to Heaven. So why are we to doubt that the Saints who went before us and our own dearly loved ones who believed, are not in Heaven in the company of our Lord?........ And who better than those who are already in the company of God are better placed to add our prayers to their own prayers. We are ALL part of the one body and death will not separate us Spiritually.
ps...and I am not the only Catholic I know who doesn't have statues.....in fact I really don't know anyone who does....I haven't included my nativity crib here which I do 'bring out' at Christmas.....as I know most Christian denominational churches do.
Perhaps those you know who do may use their statues as a visual aid to the love they have for Christ. Only a suggestion, but I believe most who are saved and have a healthy loving relationship with the Lord don't NEED props or aids at all, and I can see they may run the risk of coming to value their time with these 'icons' as more important than the time spent with the Father. Its not something I would advocate nor is it what the Catholic church teaches. We know we can walk boldly up to the throne of God any time we want.....and be greeted with open arms....so why would any Christian not want to go to the Source directly.....I still ask friends and the saints to intercede (pray) for me and others in times of need though....
Gilly

From: Missy Sent: 07/01/2006 21:32
Thanks for your reply Gilly.

Your the only catholic i know who doesnt have statues etc.

Personally i don't see the point in praying to anyone else, whats the point?
We don't even know if they definately reside in heaven.
How would the saint even know if the person asking them to intercede knows their real hearts?

IE, If a voodoo priest requested prayer for the priestess would they get it?

MISSY.

From: Gilly Sent: 07/01/2006 18:42
I don't pray to or worship them, nor do I have any statues adorning my home, niether do I ask of anyone other than the Lord to keep me safe nor in fact do any of the Catholics I know....and there are many of them. I do know of many people, however, who profess to be Christian....and would not dream of setting out on a journey without their St. Christopher.... As I said, there are saved and unsaved in all churches....so if you know of anyone who tells you they are saved yet DO worship and put their trust in these icons and NOT God, then you need to ask the question 'are they truly saved'....but please do not attribute to those who practise these customs as setting an example of the Catholic faith. It is not what we are taught and very Unbiblical.
I will point out however, that we DO ask the Saints to intercede for us in our prayers, in just the same way as I would ask my fellow Christians for prayer. There are many excellent Catholic sites that give a good understanding of this false belief.
The Catholic teachings are sound....it is to God alone we worship and adore.
gbu
Gilly

From: Missy Sent: 07/01/2006 18:08
Elaine, thanks for raising this thread, as a very dear friend I know you to be accepting of ALL denominations and recognise that we Catholics are falsely accused of the worship and adoration of icons, statues, Saints etc.


Gilly, I really feel the need to reply to the above comment.

I don't feel catholics are falsely accused here to be honest because they do pray to and adore statues. Ive never been into a catholic home which didnt have at least one staue of Our Lady and they do rely on these things for saftety, by that I mean place trust in them for protection etc.

MISSY.

From: Gilly Sent: 07/01/2006 17:23
As a Catholic, I have really enjoyed reading the posts as this thread has progressed over the past week, and as a Christian first, and a practising Catholic second, it has done my heart so much good to see that Christians of all denominations recognise that we Catholics who are truly Born Again, do not follow or practise the anti Christian practises that are often falsely attributed to the Catholic faith. I cannot commend Trevors post highly enough as he has explained in a gifted and non judgemental way that ALL denominations, be they Catholic or the more protestant Anglican, Baptist, Methodist, Free Churches and all the other Christian denominations, have saved and unsaved alike....we ALL need to look inward to the unsaved within our own churches. Thankyou Missy and Trevor for sharing so openly.... your personal experiences and views are much appreciated.
Missy, it is a very difficult cultural and political divide within the Christian church in Northern Ireland and if you were Unsaved as such whilst living there it is so understandable how you perceived the church. Politics have caused many divisions within all sectors of the church AND communities there. However, even in a religiously divided nation like Northern Ireland, churches are uniting again, and taking dominance over their political differences as the Christian voice speaks out for peace and a return to the Christian values in our societies.
Elaine, thanks for raising this thread, as a very dear friend I know you to be accepting of ALL denominations and recognise that we Catholics are falsely accused of the worship and adoration of icons, statues, Saints etc. Of course the wise in faith know that this is not so and that it was the great Renaissance art revival of the 17th century that brought the beautiful artistic works that are displayed in many Christian churches. We do need to remember that in Biblical days very few could read or write and one of the ways people could express themselves was through art by drawing visual images. This was one means of how the early uneducated Christians could express their faith....their love of Jesus...through pictures as they could not write the words.
Gilly

From: Ifeoma Sent: 07/01/2006 12:30
Believe you mean. I do not know what to believe I was born Catholic but married an Anglican Protestant. I find their system of worship not too different.
May be in my own part of the world the Catholics have Bible study before Mass.( I am from Onitsha, Nigeria) So what they preach is biblical apart from this their Roman Rituals which is not too different from our traditional religion with so many deities which the Catholics call the Saints. I think they are Christians in their own way
From: Missy Sent: 07/01/2006 15:41
Thanks for your comments Trevor and Ifeoma.

I do agree Trevor.

Ifeoma, its probably a lot different in Nigeria. In Ireland the differences started many years ago. Its quite difficult to explain without doing so in a n essay which I havent time to do.

MISSY.

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 07/01/2006 11:27
thank you for sharing that pewrsonal bit of info missy. (did my first ever recommendation!!)

It helps me understand where yoou are coming from. Ulster is not the easiest of places to live with the religious divides.

perhaps an illustration of the difference between religious systems and individual faith can be illustrated by an experience I had.

I worked as an area Inspector for a Company based in Bristol and due to pressures at the office I commuted from Barry every week for some months to help them out and used to have lunch with a senior underwriter and the manager. Sharing my faith was easy because at the time I lived in a Bible College and was often asked why. As the Underwriter and I got to know each other we became good friends and talked a lot about faith. The surprising thing was that Ian Paisley had spent a term in the College I lived at during his student days and at that stage sent his students to us for training and my friend's wife was a collector for the IRA! Such was the situation in the 70s that Ian Paisley and Bernadette Devlin were seen by both of us on the moderate edge of the divide.

On a personal level it was easy to share as friends despite what would have been seen as impossible differences by many outsiders. i have heard the big man in the flesh and enjoyed his preaching but his politics were not biblically based (in my opinion) hence my comment that whether people are in Roman catholic or Protestant
systems it does not mean they are Christian but neither does it mean that within you cannot have a personal spiritual experience of God in either system!

I love the words of Nahum 'The Lord knows those who are His' and sometimes we must leave it there.

trevorofbude

From: Bigdan5199 Sent: 07/01/2006 10:46
When I call myself a Christian it is only out of conveniance that i do so,I beleive in God. His son Jesus who died for me on the cross and the holy spirit who comes to those who open there hearts to listen to him.I beleive religion is a man made factor the same as a nationality. for example you would assosiate an arab as being muslim or a Gurka being Hindu and traditionally the british being christian.How many denominations of the "christain" faith is there.Baptist, JesusChristians,Quakers,Messienic Jews,Unification church, catholics, protestants, I could go on but im sure you get the jist.As for the Catholic religion being the Anti-Christ, well only God Knows. Satan will try and deceive us at all cost, He knows he is fighting a losing battle.

From: Missy Sent: 07/01/2006 10:42

I shall just add a little of my own experiences here too.

As I was brought up in Northern Ireland in a catholic area (as Im sure you all know, your either a catholic or a protestant in NI.) I have to admit I never once heard a decent teaching, I didnt know my bible and certainly didnt lead a christian life while still believing I was guaranteed a place in heaven (as they all do, sadly).
I can also say that anyone catholic I ever knew and still do (back home) are still in that situation and to try and tell them different isn't taken too well. Sadly the religion for them is very much a culture thing, and God doesn't even come into the equation.
Also they don't call themselves christians, if asked they say they are "Roman catholic". I have actually had to explain that this is a christian religion many times. (and one of the oldest).
When I met my husband he was a christian and I found him a little strange to say the least, Oh there was many an argument but the thing about his side was he always had bible scripture to back up what he was saying and I didn't.
Well, I don't want to bore you so on that note, I shall sign off!

Love MISSY.

From: Dunggate Sent: 06/01/2006 23:13
Catholic Christian or Antichrist.
I have a few testimonies that I could write upon the subject and it could turn out quite lengthy so I am trying to chose a short version to write here as those who know me have to knock me off my soap box lol
Often when the catholic has croped up in conversation and mostly it has been said OHHHHHHH they are the Antichrist.
To be quite honest with you in my younger days as Christian I believed every mature Christian and took this onboard for many years, I thought anyone who was catholic was the antichrist in my ignorance.
Other thoughts came my way overthe years which I had to ponder and pray about and this is really the first time I have really had to sit and give it even more thought and explaination of my findings.
I am no theologian so please bare with me as I can only speak from my heart and my experiences.
You can draw your own conclusions and thoughts and view which would be appreciated. I am sure not everyone will agree.
Lets keep this light and not heated.
Ok lets start.
Hmm.... I can go back over 18 years ago for sure. This was my first experience of beginning to understand. At time of my writing here I am 25 years in the Lord Jesus being bornagain of His spirit.
I had a working holiday at a Caravan site cleaning 5 Caravans which meant my children could have a seaside holiday. There is so much more involved in this testimony but I am trying to keep it to the catholic focus.
During my free time, there was a beach Mission Outreach going on I can't remember what they were called but you know the type of thing. They had a Punch and Judy type Show with a Christian message. I sat with the children who were gathered around at the end........... a young catholic girl approached me sat and talked with me, she obviously had been led by God as I did not know the girl.......she must have been in a stunned state for want of better word as she said to me I dont know what I am going to do now I am a catholic girl but I have heard something that have changed my thinking completely and I feel different, words to that effect. I simply said to her don't worry dear you go back to your Church and God will sort it all out. This was no glib reply I really felt it was of God to say that to her,and that is the end of this part.
ok lol
I am not going to write the whole part of Testimony where God much later about 12 years or little more maybe, wanted to bring something else to my attention. If you really want to know the will of God in your life you will examine and take onboard and pray, so I will put up a link to Turkey Divine Appointment Testimony.
THE LINK
http://groups.msn.com/WorldwideChristians/creativeboard.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=9130&LastModified=4675549249802989869
Along the way in my ignorance and learning God has shown me that in all denominations HE DO NOT SEE LABELS OR DOCTRINES OF MAN what he sees is the heart of people who have a yearning to know HIM a searching a seeker and longing for GOD this happens in every denomination I am sure in my heart of hearts and it would take GOD not man to persuade me otherwise.
THIS IS A BOLD STATEMENT
what I feel
In every denomination there is an anti-Christ spririt lurking didn't Jesus say Mathew 13: 29-30 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Wherever you find yourself whatever denomination, whatever is preached I not the Lord would say stay where you are for a season, whether The Lord would tell you to move you must listen to His voice for who knows if the Lord would have you provoke people to think on these things by your testimony. You will find the example in how the Lord led me with the DIVINE APPOINTMENT TURKEY TESTIMONY LINK
GOD IS LOOKING FOR SEARCHERS, SEEKERS and he will bless you where-ever you find yourself.
It is quite difficult to write what is in your heart, and often it is misinterpreted to what you are saying for lack of vocabulary or the written word of understanding.
I pray God will reveal to you what is in mine and I know for sure it is not my thinking for I am completely ignorant of denominational doctrines thankfully smiles.
I cannot add much more which I feel is pertaining to this TOPIC
I pray that God will speak to our hearts, reveal his will in our lives, that Jesus will be the CornerStone, the sure foundation of our faith.
That we will ignore the doctrine of man and look to God through Christ Jesus,...........
God come down, Immanuel, God with us, our Saviour and no one else, who is the sacrifice of our sin.
May God has his blessing,
bringing light to those whose light has been dimmed.
Love in Jesus
Elaine.

From: Missy Sent: 06/01/2006 16:32
Thanks for replying trevor, Hope i didnt seem bossy!!!


When you said :

Catholic teaching in many things would not be deemed Biblical by any Protestant but then some Protestant teaching is equally in error.

It seems to suggest to me the two against eachother. Also these are the only two religions you mention.


MISSY.

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 06/01/2006 15:20
hi missy

nor was I!! Your original theme suggests some may see Ctaholics as either Christian or Anti-Christian, I dont think those are the only alternatives.

If you reread my post you will see I am distinguishing between individuals of whatever persuasion who have a real experience of the New Birth are Christians.

I also pointed out that what the Catholic or Protestant systems where individuals may be in membership need to be tested as both can be led by people who follow the Master and those who choose their own motives.

I dont use big fonts so sometimes it may be more difficult to grasp what I say!!

Perhaps the theme may have been clearer if the question was is Ctholicism Christian or Anti-Christian?

trevorofbude

From: Dunggate Sent: 06/01/2006 14:03
You see from Post 2 that there are stained-glass saints with shining halos, sculptures put on pedastals etc., and not necessarily catholic Cathedrals.
Just a short post. I am a little behind with things but I hope to post more later. Elaine.

From: Missy Sent: 05/01/2006 17:21
Dear Trevor,
We weren't planning on doing this as a protestant versus catholic thing, we mean in general.

MISSY.

From: trevor_of_bude Sent: 05/01/2006 17:17
To me the answer is simple.

Catholic teaching in many things would not be deemed Biblical by any Protestant but then some Protestant teaching is equally in error.

That individual Catholics who have access the Bible and experience the New Birth can of course be Christians as can individual Protestants who have access to the Bible and experience the New Birth..

When it comes to church membership and affiliation one needs to look at their credal statements and join those that are nearest to Biblical teaching and practice.For me I would find Roman Catholic practices and teaching at variance with the Bible but then I would also have difficulties with many Protestant denominational practices and dogmatics (or lack of them!!).

That both Catholics and Protestants have a history of acting in a very unbiblical way are merely the results of not following the ways of the Master but allowing themselves to be led by men who have a different agenda. The New Testament reminds us twas always the case with many turning from the truth quite early on.

So let the 'One who thinks he stands be careful lest he fall'

trevorofbude

From: Dunggate Sent: 04/01/2006 16:28
This could turn out to be a huge discussion if everyone pitches in so I am going to take my views or findings in bite size.
Often the IDOLS are something that people tend to jump on but by coincidence part of the things I wanted time to bring on this particular subject happened to pop into my mail box. I call this Godincidence.
It would not be correct for me to copy paste parts and pass off as my own. So I will take the whole of email as follows, which may give us a little more insight and some marvelous teaching at the same time.
It is not exactly what The Focus this Week is asking but we are sure to have IDOLS crop up, and other comments. Elaine.

Live ItGod Glorified in the Nobodies

John MacArthur

If you've ever visited the great cathedrals in Europe, you'd think the
apostles were larger-than-life stained-glass saints with shining halos
who represented
an exalted degree of spirituality. But actually, they were very, very
common men. It's a shame they have so often been put on pedestals as
magnificent
marble figures, or portrayed in paintings like some kind of Roman gods.
That dehumanizes them. They were just twelve completely ordinary
men-human in every
way-and we shouldn't lose touch with who they really were.

So what qualified those men to be apostles? The truth is, it wasn't any
intrinsic ability or outstanding talent of their own. They were
Galileans. They
were not the elite. Galileans were considered low-class, rural,
uneducated, people. They were commoners, nobodies. But those nobodies would
become the
preeminent leaders of the fledgling church-its very foundation!

Now when it comes to church leadership, there are some rather clear
moral and spiritual qualifications that men must meet. The Bible sets the
standard extremely
high (see 1 Timothy 3:2-7; Titus 1:6-9; Hebrews 13:7).

But you know something? The standard isn't any lower for the rest of
the church. Leaders are to be examples for all others who strive to meet
the same standard.
There is no such thing as an acceptable "lower" standard for
rank-and-file church members. In fact, in Matthew 5:48, Jesus said to all
believers, "Be perfect,
just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

That's a tall order! Frankly, no one meets such a standard. Humanly
speaking, no one "qualifies" when the standard is utter perfection. What
joy there is
in knowing that it is God Himself who must save sinners, sanctify them,
and then transform the unqualified into instruments He can use.

The twelve were like the rest of us; they were selected from the
unworthy and the unqualified. They were, like Elijah, men "with a nature like
ours" (James
5:17). They did not rise to the highest usefulness because they were
somehow different from us. Rather, their transformation into vessels of
honor was
a divine work and their incredible influence is a result of the divine
message they preached.

Why God Chooses Us

Do you ever become discouraged and disheartened when your spiritual
life and witness suffer because of personal sin or failure? We tend to
think we're worthless
nobodies-and left to ourselves, that would be true! But be
encouraged-worthless nobodies are just the kind of people God uses. If you think
about it, that's
all He has to work with!

But have you ever stopped to consider why that's true? Listen to this:
God chooses the humble, the lowly, the meek, and the weak so that
there's never any
question about the source of power when their lives change the world.
It's not the man; it's the truth of God and the power of God in the man.
Next time
you're reading through the gospels or the book of Acts, take a few
minutes to consider the work of God in the apostles. They were slow to
believe, slow
to understand, and had horrendous memories! Sound familiar?

Don't worry-that is perfectly consistent with the way the Lord always
works. 1 Corinthians 1:20-21 says, "Where is the wise? Where is the
scribe? Where
is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of
this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did
not know
God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to
save those who believe."

That is the very reason there were no philosophers, no brilliant
writers, no famous debaters, no distinguished teachers, and no men who had
ever distinguished
themselves as great orators among the twelve Christ chose. They became
great spiritual leaders and great preachers under the power of the Holy
Spirit,
but it was not because of any innate oratorical skill, leadership
abilities, or academic qualifications they had. Their influence is owing to
one thing
and one thing only: the power of the message they preached.

On a human level, the gospel was considered a foolish message and the
apostles were deemed unsophisticated preachers. Their teaching was
beneath the elite.
They were mere fishermen and working-class nobodies. Peons. Rabble.
That was the assessment of their contemporaries and that has been the
majority opinion
of the genuine church of Christ throughout history and to this very
day! "For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to
the flesh,
not many mighty, not many noble, are called" (v. 26).

But think about this: "God has chosen the foolish things of the world
to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the
world to put to
shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and
the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are
not, to
bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His
presence" (vv. 27-29).

God's favorite instruments are nobodies, so that no man can boast
before God. In other words, God chooses whom He chooses so He might receive
the glory.
He chooses weak instruments so no one will attribute the power to the
instruments but rather to the God who wields the instruments. Those who
pursue their
own glory will sadly find God's strategy unacceptable-and they'll miss
out on true glory and true joy.

With the notable exception of Judas, the apostles were not like that.
They certainly struggled with pride and arrogance like every fallen
human being. But
the driving passion of their lives became the glory of Christ. And it
was that passion, subjected to the influence of the Holy Spirit-not any
innate skill
or human talent-that explains why they left such an indelible impact on
the world.

Adapted from "Twelve Ordinary Men", by John MacArthur. (c) Copyright
2002. All rights reserved.

From: Missy (Original Message) Sent: 04/01/2006 11:31
Ive chosen something im sure will get a good discussion going this week.

Elaine wanted it discussed so im sure she will add her piece when she can.

Please remember we do have Catholics who use this group, keep this in mind when posting your messages.

Question is.....

Are catholics anti christ or christians?
MISSY.

From: Dunggate Sent: 25/11/2005 22:03
CATHOLICS Anti Christ or CHRISTIANS?
Bringing discussion I had with Gilly to our opening post so others will understand we are non denominational group and this is beneficial to understand that in all there are Bornagain believers.
rom: Gilly Sent: 25/11/2005 23:10
This should be an enjoyable and educational thread I think., Elaine, we can help others understand the Catholic faith and help alleviate many myths and taboos associated with our faith. Also what about exploring all our Christian denominational faiths. It would be a good opportunity for us all to have a better understanding and acceptance of each others churches.
Gilly
From: Dunggate Sent: 25/11/2005 23:24
Thanks Gilly I look forward to us exploring this myself who is going to start the Focus me fear it maybe me LOL I hope some will jump in and volunteer. I am no theologian whatever, and can only speak from my experiences.
Elaine
From: Gilly Sent: 25/11/2005 23:34
me either, so if you do one denomination at a time perhaps we can start with Catholicism. People always have plenty to say about our faith. It will be good to have a chance to tell it as it really is. Let us catholics know if we can help you to start.

Gilly