Focus: CATHOLICS Anti Christ or CHRISTIANS?

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 28/05/2006 17:06
Dognox. I will cease to talk to you anymore. (Scripture tells me to cease). You have not substantiated to propositions you put forth. l can only assume you have no scripture to support them. I am a student of scripture and l see no scripture to support your propositions. They are Roman Dogma but not based on NT teaching and run contrary to scripture.

Steve

From: soapoperagirl13262 Sent: 29/05/2006 01:39
I am a Catholic and I am not offended with the question but for me I am not a anti christ I think of myself as a Christian. I am a good person deep inside and outside and I just love helping others.

P.S. Okay Can anybody help me out I have this situation where I am scared of Dogs but can you give me some tips on not to be so scared of Dogs? I like to get rid of my fear because I have may have to babysit for my next tore neibor and they have a dog so I would like to get to know the dog. Thanks.
From: Missy Sent: 29/05/2006 10:05
Iamsaved,

i must say that i think that it was truly irresponsible to start this thread. catholicism is one of the oldest of denominations of christianity and today accounts for more that half of all christions in the world. you may not agree with all they believe byt you have no right to question their faith

Truly irresponsible? I think not it, the idea came from a catholic member afterall.
We as christians have every right to discuss religions. It may be the oldest religion but that doesnt mean it should not be discussed, nor does it mean its right!

MISSY.

From: Dogknox Sent: 28/05/2006 16:30
Reply to Openairpreacherman.. You want, out right, word for word, saying "Mary is the Mother of the Church"!!!

Or you say the bible does not support this claim...

BUT you agree with these biblical reference also not said "Word for word!! HOW COME???
1) Trinity
2)Jesus IS God
3) Bible Alone
4 Faith Alone
5) Alter Call
6) Can't loose salvation
7) Communion (the word communion)
8) Church Fathers
9) No infant baptism (Not mentioned ; word for word)
etc

NONE of the above are explicitly said..... You seem to want to believe them! How come??

Yet John 6 says... "My Flesh is REAL food" and "You must drink my Blood" and "You MUST eat my flesh" other places in the bible Jesus tells us (holding bread) "This IS my Body" and the wine "This IS my blood" these you don't believe as in the bible yet you see them word for word in this order "This IS" you refuse to believe!
HOW COME?
What is the matter with these words (above)?... THEY ARE IN THE BIBLE! OR how about these words "Baptism SAVES" you don't believe these ether !

You say you have faith; in Jesus, but you don't believe what the words of Jesus,..."THE WORDS OF GOD" tell you!!!!
How can this be???
Or are you a "Selective bible believer" you believe what you want; yet all the time trumpet "Bible ONLY"!!!???

The bible says.. word for word..
John 5:24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Openairpreacherman There it is WORD FOR WORD!!!
Yet you don't believe!!
What is the matter with these words???

How come you insist Mary is not the Mother of Jesus It is Implied in scripture in one easy step:
Mary is the mother of Jesus .. Jesus is the Church thus .....
Mary = Church Mother !!
Mary is the Mother of Jesus!
Jesus is God!
Mary = Mother of God!!

God joins Husband and wife! In Matrimony!
Yet it is ok to separate Jesus from His Bride!!!!
Protestors like King Henry also disagreed with the bible!
They divorced, they started a "Doctrine" of MAN!!!
They (Anglicans) broke away and believe (their church) over the "Doctrines of the CHURCH that they broke from!!
The Catholic Church!
I never see threads with titles like:
"Are Anglicans Christian or Anti-Christ?"
Anglicans came from within the Catholic Church.. The bible tells us 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Anglicans were Among Catholics at first?
It was not the other way around... So 2Peter 2:1 can't ever mean Catholics were False teachers!!! BUT, it could mean King Henry was or Martin Luther (a catholic priest) was!!!
They started out as Catholic..
Protestants started out as Catholic... Hmmm False teashers.. Hmmm Heresies!!! Make one wonder does it not???

YOU SAID NOT ME! If The Pope is the head of every Christian and if the Roman church is 'The Church', then we protestants are going to hell.

I never did say and never will say "Protesters are going to hell!!!!!"
You are "Implying it" !!!
Catholic believe All men that LOVE will go to heaven..
Yes even "Hindus" "Buddhists" "Chinese" "Jew" "Muslem"
ALL peoples that do Good for, and to others.. Go to heaven!!
"Love God and Love neighbor as thy self" Openairpreacherman.. This is also in the bible!!!!

I point out to you: it is you "Protesters" that preach 'Unless you take Jesus as lord and savior you will not enter heaven"
You pure, saved ONLY protesters say..
"Faith Alone" leavening all the fore mentioned out of heaven!
You Saved only Protesters say "Bible alone" leaving all peoples without bibles, out of heaven, all peoples that can't read or are to simple out of heaven!!!! (Babies the exception) (Chinese go to hell)

I ask you Openairpreacherman if I am wrong to say "Only Protestants get to heaven" how come you believe it ???

Prove me wrong from scripture: all but the saved (protestants) go to hell!

Dogknox

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 28/05/2006 15:47
I remember the official invitation to Jan Huss to come for Roman examination and the treachery of the Roman Pontiff.

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/7.html

Steve

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 28/05/2006 15:42
Hi Gilly, May l express that l have no problem with you or Dognox on a personal level. I fully am in sympathy with your work and commend you for it. If you are a believer then we are one in Christ on a personal level. However there is the situation of our official standing in relation to the ancient religions.

You say...
I fully support his views on the heresy of Luther
My answer...
This is the crux of the matter. If the Roman church were able to do so, they would have murdered Luther without a thought. It was only Political Protestant powers that preserved his life. (Take a good look at the treachery of Jan Huss and you will see what l mean) Your expressing that Luther was a heretic is disgraceful. I believe Luther's evangelical doctrines! Am l a heretic too?

You say...
I do agree however in the Unity of the Christian faith in working towards peace and the promoting of Christian values and morals into society.
My answer...
This is typical double talk - you speak of peace and unity but what you mean is the peace and unity of the Roman church. Presumably you do not mean - peace with the Lutherans! (They are heretics remember, how can you have peace with a heretic?)
No, this is the smooth talk of the Roman Church it declares 'peace, peace, when there is no peace'.

Lastly with respect, you refer to the Roman Church as a 'demonination'. This is clearly not the case. The Roman Church is a very separate religion and not a denomination. Using the word denomination in this way makes the Roman religion appear to be one of many protestant demoninations. This is not the case there is not one denominationdenominationsdenomination that would join in Christian fellowship with the Roman Church. Nor does the Roman Church join in with Protestant Denominations. (I dont mean an occasional service l mean a real union) Lets not kid ourselves. Or anyone listening.

Steve

From: Gilly Sent: 28/05/2006 13:51
Hi Steve,
Yes I am a Catholic and have only ever been so, but I think you may be confusing our discussions where I mention that I do attend other Christian denominational services in my role of Christian support provider for many in the community.
I recognise that there are saved and unsaved in all denominations but by combining our strengths and talents all churches working together are able to provide support for all those in our community reaching out to bring not only hope and practical support to the unsaved but to those who are going through tremendous struggles ranging from drug and alcohol abuse, homelessness, depression, loneliness, physical, emotional and sexual abuses. I have a high regard of so many other denominations as well as my own as they reach out in Christian love to all who are in need of help and support, and I commend many compassionate and forward thinking church leaders who actively strive for peace and unity. When we come to Believe we equally need to belong to the church.
Now with regard to Dogknox's comments regarding protestantism and the divide from the Catholic church, I fully support his views on the heresy of Luther, I am not speaking with venom, but I do not agree with your statements. I do not promote Bible alone. The Bible clearly instructs us to establish the church and the more we read and understand God's Word the more questions we all have to ask. We need our Priests and teachers to help answer all we ask, we need each other to share praise and worship and fellowship. The Sacraments are crucial to me in my faith and no other denomination is able to provide the satisfaction that I receive from the Sacraments of the Catholic church.
I do agree however in the Unity of the Christian faith in working towards peace and the promoting of Christian values and morals into society.

Hi Elaine,
Without exception your postings, not only in this thread, but in all you write, are always written and given in Christian love and acceptance.
I value your friendship and recognise that you are never judgemental. I wasn't disagreeing with you starting this thread, quite the contrary, as I agree we have discussed in the past it will be good to explore the understandings and mistruths about the various denominations. So many who are new to faith do not understand even the basics about Christianity let alone why there are so many Christian denominations.
The Catholic faith is frequently misrepresented by non Catholics, and I had looked forward to a good healthy discussion. Whilst I know it wasn't your intention to cause so much confrontation, and it is commendable that you have refused to be drawn into confrontation on the subject, I'm afraid that those who have strong anti Catholic views have used the title to bring judgement and division into discusssion on a personal level. Whilst I recognise that you do not judge Catholics as to whether they are saved or not or are of the anti Christ, perhaps the title may suggest it to those who have expressed very strong opinions.
So yes, lets discuss the denominational differences but let it not get personal or divisional and lets bring our views to air in a mature, loving, Christian way. We each have the choice and freedom to discover the truth for ourselves and it is only by hearing the truth that we can make that decision.
Gilly

From: Dunggate Sent: 28/05/2006 10:39
Hi Gilly,
Post 71 you said
I agree with IamSaved that it was irresponsible to start a thread with this title. I feel the personal remarks and accusations of heresy aimed at Catholics here defending their faith is uncalled for and judgemental.
I would respectfully, just want to remind you that you and I were in a private conversation a long while back on MSN IM, where we discussed how often the Catholic is accused of being the anti- Christ --- we talked of the FOCUS Board when you said you would like to air your views on the Catholic Faith that others may understand. I suggested you put it forward but you asked me to begin it.
I would say this in private to you but as you have made this statement ..........Just that others may not be confused WorldWideChritianGroup is not declaring the opening POST but this was asked of, by you, for me to put this forward as a FOCUS Discussion Thread.
Love in Jesus
Elaine.
God Bless you.
oops p.s.
If you will go to the first OPENING POST underneath,on the lefthand side where it says First click on that where you can read from the beginning of this discussion.
Message 2, 5 and 8 mine........You will find I was not biased of the Catholic's and said so, pointing out...........In every denomination there is an anti-Christ spirit within didn't Jesus say
Mathew 13: 29-30 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Elaine

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 28/05/2006 08:00
Gilly l am referring to post 62

I will repeat the post...

The ball is in your court. What l want from you is specific scriptures that specifically show these things that you have said, to be true...

1. "Mary the Mother of the Church!!!""
2. "the Church" would give birth as in "Born Again" in Christ..
3. They have a Father ...God.. No mother!
This, in its self, should, send alarms ringing, because it goes against nature.
4. The Catholic Church is a Good Mother.
Because She is 'The Body of Christ,
5. She the Church Heals her Children
6. Bible Alone is A doctrine of MAN and NOT found in the bible...

In Post 65 he attempted no 1 with Luke 1v43 Col 1v24 1 Cor 15v9
None of which prove that Mary is the mother of the church.
The first states that Mary is the mother of the Lord
The second refers to the church Christs body
The third mearly states the words church of God
None of them prove that Mary is the Mother of the church

He then attempted no 5 - 'She the church heals her children'
(Actually l think he is confused here and is answering another point)
In this answer he gave one scripture Eph 5v29 which describes how leaders in a local church pray for the sick.
This does not prove that the Roman church heals Her Children

The last was no 6 - 'Bible alone is a doctrine of man not found in the Bible'.
He quotes Eph 3v9-11 which describe the manifestation of the glory of God through the church. This does not prove the point.
1 Tim 5v17 This verse describes the work of Eldership (which the Roman church does not have!) No Roman Church has elders appointed as far as l know. this does not address the point.
Eph 3v20 This verse ia a hymn of praise and describes the glory of God revealed in the church. This does not address the point.
Col 1v18 Describes Christ as head of the Church. The point is not proved here.
Acts 9v4 Paul hears a voice from heaven saying why do you persecute me! This verse does not prove the point.
Acts 8v3 Paul began to destroy the church In what way does this verse prove the point of as Dognox says 'Bible alone is wrong'?

I could go on but non of these propositions are proven by Scripture
I notice that Dognox did not even attempt no 2, 3 and 4. Presumably because there is no possibility of defending these propositions.

Gilly
Yes, I do accuse him of posting venom. It is found in post 68 in which he attacks every church that is not part of the Roman system and says that ...
'Bible Alone is Anti-Church thus it MUST be Anti-Christ because the Church is Christs body!' This is the proposition that enabled the Roman leaders to retionalise the persecution of most of Europe.

If all churches that are not part of the Roman Church are not Christs body, then the Roman Church was free to persecute all others which it did in the inquisition.

I have given Dognox plenty of opportunity to defend his position and propositions from scripture, And he has introduced a lot of scripture that is irrelevant.

This thread is not pointless it is at the very heart of Christianity.

If The Pope is the head of every Christian and if the Roman church is 'The Church', then we protestants are going to hell. It is very important to me and others to discuss these things.

As for yourself you told me that you attend a baptist church at one time, yet you now say that you are a faithful member of the Roman Church. Which is it Gilly? You cannot have it both ways. The Roman church and the Protestant churches are clearly not the same. I do not recognize one Protestant church that would be happy to accept Roman Church Dogma. Nor does the Roman church recognize the teaching of Protestant churches. They recognize their existence and right to exist but do not accept their faith.

You say l should apologize. For what? I have reminded this community of the suffering endured under the last Roman Queen and said that l feel some of the venom of those days in Dognoxs post - What wrong with that? Should l apologize for saying that His posts are full of venom? They are. And as for the historical significance l think that Christians should read history to get a perspective of what happened under Roman Kings and Queens.

An account of the suffering under Mary...
http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox116.htm

Read this and then tell me why we are a protestant country

As for bringing the salvation of Romans into doubt. Yes l do. If they are relying on Infant Baptism, Confirmation, The mass, Confession to a priest etc etc then l do. This is not salvation its religion. And not only do millions of Romans today go to church thinking that they are saved because of it, but they are going to hell in fact. The other side is that the Roman church teaches that Salvation is found IN the Roman communion and no Salvation found outside of it. This is an abomination.

As for unity l am happy to enjoy unity with all real Christians because in reality we are united in Christ.

I do not accept that the Roman church does promote unity in Europe. Yes, the Roman Church would like to put the clock back and welcome every nation back into the Roman fold but that would be the greatest betrayal of evangelical and a betrayal of the lives of evangelical martyrs that gave their lives for freedom from the Roman yoke.

Is this a battle? Yes it is. A battle against Error and Heresy. Let us take a stand on the scriptures alone. The cry of the reformation was 'Scripture alone' 'Faith Alone' 'Christ alone'. And the smell of burning flesh filled the streets for the truth of these words.

I need no Roman councils, no priest, no confessions, no mass, no pope. I have Christ and his Word. That is enough for me.

Think of young Hunter only nineteen murdered at the stake on the command of a Romish Queen and a Roman Bishops Because he refused the Roman Mass. Quote...
Hunter, then nineteen years of age, refusing to receive the communion at Mass, was threatened to be brought before the bishop;...William was sent down to Brentwood, where he was to be executed...."Behold," answered William, "I am not afraid." Then he lifted up his hands to heaven, and said, "Lord, Lord, Lord, receive my spirit;" and casting down he head again into the smothering smoke, he yielded up his life for the truth, sealing it with his blood to the praise of God.



Steve

From: Gilly Sent: 28/05/2006 00:45
Hi Steve, you say.....

As for You Dognox you have not answered any of the questions l put to you.

He hasn't?
Well just to remind you Steve he posted no less than TWENTY passages from Scripture...... giving you GOD'S Words in answer to your questions. It was given in context and was an excellent use of Scripture. Now even you, surely can't accuse him of posting venom.

Then you say...

Your first attempt at proving the first point has failed miserably

It has? How?
Personally I was very impressed that he answered EVERY question you asked and with Scripture to back up his argument.
I for one found myself smiling when I read his post and pictured you nipping down to your local Catholic Church and asking the Priest....'Tell me how I can convert to the Catholic Faith?'
So come on Steve......lets here your reply to each Scriptural answer Dogknox has given you in his post#65, if as you say.....

Your first attempt at proving the first point has failed miserably

Steve, Do you agree with what the Scripture says in Dogknox's reply to you?

You tell Dogknox..

I give you one more go, then we will leave it at that.

I say.....how condescending of you.
Surely this is for Dogknox to decide.......He has such PATIENCE, and so much wants you to see the truth.
In case you hadn't noticed HE/SHE has continually answered ALL questions aimed at him/her and the Catholic church with an abundance of Scripture in each reply. Apart from the TWENTY he posted in answering your questions, he then went on to quote another EIGHTEEN passages of Scripture in reply to Gavin's post.
He/she has put forward an excellent defense for the Catholic church and I and others here have stood back in admiration at all he has written. Almost single handedly he has stood up to be accountable to his faith and that is comendable.
Personally, I think he has shown the patience of a Saint, and he clearly shows that he is a Believer who BELONGS...... having remained focussed on Biblical answers whilst under attack continually for defending the Catholic church. If I wasn't already a Catholic, he would have had me converted, and he is an excellent advocate for his faith.
I see confrontation and much anti Catholic bigotry as I look over the posts that have contributed to this thread.
I agree with IamSaved that it was irresponsible to start a thread with this title. I feel the personal remarks and accusations of heresy aimed at Catholics here defending their faith is uncalled for and judgemental. I sense only anger in the posts of those who demonstrate the most antiCatholic stance.
I say let the discussion continue.....and yet again, I remind you all, that whether we agree or not with each other we base all our answers in the Scriptures, reminding ourselves that God loves each and everyone of us here, as we love Him and we are commanded to do the same to others. No more judgments to be made please, and no more harsh words.
Merry posted....

Once we begin to disregard the things that are written in the Bible, we are in grave error of going down the wrong path.

Steve, Merry has some wise words here.....so please re-read Dogknox's post again....the one with TWENTY quotes from Scripture.....and see if you have disagreement. If so, please can you use Scripture to back up what you are saying?
And finally, you say...

can see something of the venom of the inquisition in your posts Dognox. No wonder England was filled with murder in 1555

....was there really need to post that last part Steve? It was unnecessary, and serves no purpose to bring yet more hostility or politics into the debate. I believe the intonation of what you were saying warrants an apology.

My friends, much as I should have liked to see good debating here, many have used it as an opportunity to promote anti Catholic bigotry, and to bring the Salvation of Catholics into doubt.
I ask you to join me in promoting Unity in the Christian Faith. The Catholic church was at the forefront of promoting Unity across all Christian denominations in the name of peace.
As disciples we are sent out to Evangelise......to lead others to Salvation.... It is then for that individual to choose their own denomination as they grow in their own faith.
We have a big enough battle with the enemy, and it is only by acknowledging and encompassing our strengths as Christians that we can as one church do battle against the enemy, and win even more souls from the enemy.

I pray that God speaks to each and everyone on this matter. My love for you all I have shown consistantly in my postings for a long while now, and unless further posts do not show that same love and respect I don't believe I can continue posting here....and that saddens me.

God Bless
Gilly

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 27/05/2006 20:41
I can see something of the venom of the inquisition in your posts Dognox. No wonder England was filled with murder in 1555. Praise God it came to an end.

You say...
BUT along comes Merry2004 and says "Church has NO place in my faith; I and I alone decide what is TRUTH"!!!! I decide because "Bible ALONE" means I am the final authority on TRUTH"! You say "I and I alone believe what I and I alone want to believe because Bible ALONE would not be Alone, otherwise!!!" You are disheartened and discouraged precisely because every Tom, Dick and Harry all claiming they understand truth and start a Church claiming it and it alone has the truth... " Merry2004 Why don't you start a church? Call it "What the truth is today church"!!! Because tomorrow it will be pushed aside by another Church claiming truth!!! Bible Alone is Anti-Church thus it MUST be Anti-Christ because the Church is Christs body!

My answer...
I am happy to trust only in Gods Word alone not the traditions of the Roman Church. Taking the Bible alone as our rule of faith and practice is hardly Anti Church! It will be AntiRomanChurch. And it is hardly AntiChrist either!

You say...
All Protestants have been deceived by this Lie of Martin Luther and Satan..

My answer...
This type of talk is disgraceful and is not even Roman Church teaching. You will be aware that the Roman Pontiff has recognized the Church of England as a true church!

Iamsaved. I'm glad you are, but in 1555 it might have cost you your life for saying it!. And the battle for religious/political power carries on. The Roman Dogma was thrown out of England with the coming of Elizabeth and Praise God we have had many centuries of peace under a protestant government. Long may it continue.

As for You Dognox you have not answered any of the questions l put to you. Your first attempt at proving the first point has failed miserably. I give you one more go, then we will leave it at that.

Steve

From: 1amSaved Sent: 27/05/2006 18:59
i must say that i think that it was truly irresponsible to start this thread. catholicism is one of the oldest of denominations of christianity and today accounts for more that half of all christions in the world. you may not agree with all they believe byt you have no right to question their faith

God bless you

judgement is mine syas the lord

From: Dogknox Sent: 27/05/2006 17:20
Reply to post # 67 Merry2004 You said.. I have never read anywhere in my Bible that we should worship Mary And Mary was the mother of Jesus, and as such should be honoured, for she was indeed blessed, but if you begin to worship Mary instead of worshipping Jesus

This is why you are wrong... Catholics don't Worship Mary they "Honor Her". Worship is for GOD ALONE!!!! Don't think any differently unless you refuse to see the truth!!!!
Jesus MUST Honor His Mother... Notice Merry2004... MUST!!!! Why you ask? Because Jesus Can't SIN.. And Honor Father and MOTHER is a commandment!

The Church MUST honor Mary because the Church is the "BODY of Jesus" it is imposable to remain in and part of Jesus and refuse to "HONOR" her!!!! Merry2004 Question... Does your body do what your head tells it to do? (Unless drunk or handicapped) YES it MUST obey the brain!!!! "The Head"!!!

You said... I am one of those people who believe in "Bible alone", purely because man, in his infinite wisdom, has over the years added so much that is un-spiritual that it is hard to discern what is truth and what is not truth.

Merry2004 It is precisely because of "Bible ALONE" that there is added "un-spiritual" truth!!!!
You and millions of Protestants MUST be scripture scholars because of "BIBLE ALONE"!
You are forced to decipher each and every passage from the bible because if you relied on Church or Pastor or other book or friend or neighbor then "Bible ALONE is NOT ALONE is it????
Bible ALONE leaves CHURCH out of the picture!!!!
The Catholic Church alone with the Holy Spirit decides what each should understand and believe... it always has..
Those "Early Church Fathers" were ALL Catholics!!!!

People spend whole lives in study of old languages, cultures, histories, they study Old and New testaments, Archeology, and numerous other "Ologys" and still addmit they know very little!!!!
Groups of men and woman study each passage to find the deepest of hidden truth!

BUT along comes Merry2004 and says "Church has NO place in my faith; I and I alone decide what is TRUTH"!!!!
I decide because "Bible ALONE" means I am the final authority on TRUTH"!
You say "I and I alone believe what I and I alone want to believe because Bible ALONE would not be Alone, otherwise!!!"

You are disheartened and discouraged precisely because every Tom, Dick and Harry all claiming they understand truth and start a Church claiming it and it alone has the truth... "
Merry2004 Why don't you start a church? Call it "What the truth is today church"!!!
Because tomorrow it will be pushed aside by another Chuch claiming truth!!!

Bible Alone is Anti-Church thus it MUST be Anti-Christ because the Church is Christs body!

Catholic follow the lead of their Church because; "the Church" is Guided by the Holy Spirit.. also again the bible tells Catholics "The CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of truth"!!!
I ask you Merry... "If the Holy Spirit guided the Church as to what books belonged in the bible in 400 AD why would the Holy Spirtit also not guide The Church into deciphering whose same books"???

The Church came before the Bible.. The Catholic Church is Not the Church of the bible BUT The Bible is "The Book of the Church"

The Bible Alone tells us "THE Church has TRUTH!!!"
Your gob is to find that Church!!!
From the millions out there, only one has complete truth.
*There can only be ONE because Jesus has only ONE Body! (Not Millions conflicting and deceiving, with chaos)
*It Must be Holy because Jesus is Holy!
*It must be Apostolic because Jesus started it and handed it over to His deciples, Only the Catholic Church can follow it "Linage back to Peter.. this is a FACT documented on paper...
*This Church MUST be universal because Christ is everywhere. One billion Catholics in EVERY nation!

Faith ALONE is Anti-LOVE it leaves Love out of salvation!!!!
All Protestants have been deceived by this Lie of Martin Luther and Satan..
The Bible tells us.. "God is LOVE"
The Bible tells us.. "Faith Hope and Love, of these three LOVE is the greatest" and "the other two will pass away but LOVE will remain forever"!!! Merry2004 Question ; If all you have is FAITH, will you also PASS AWAY???? Is heaven FOREVER???
Think about it...

Dogknox

From: Dogknox Sent: 27/05/2006 07:23
Gavin .. You make statments like ..I am not saved through my baptisim..

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Romans 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Gavin NOTICE..... ONLY one and this One is ties all three together... read it again... ONE WHAT Is Faith important? Is "The Lord Important?... yes and yes... so Baptism is also IMPORTANT!!!"

GAVIN Notice .. You can't "RISE" to new life unless you first DIE!!!! Gavin how can you die first???? Hint (think of water and repentance)
Colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
Notice Gavin One of the Foundation is Baptism !!!!

You also said... You see there is no work that we can do that can save us

John 9:4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

1 Cor 3:13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work
Colos 4:17 Tell Archippus: "See to it that you complete the work you have received in the Lord."


1 Cor 16:15 15You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints. I urge you, brothers, 16 to submit to such as these and to everyone who joins in the work, and labors at it.

2 tim 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Col 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men,

Gavin Notice Jesus is working.... The Church must also work... It is the Voice and Hands of Jesus!!!

John 5:17 Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."

1 Peter 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

1 Tim 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.

Eph 4:16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. Gavin "The CHURCH" The Body of Christ WORKS.. Because Christ works!!!

2 Thess 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

Gavin what happens to the lazy man.

What happened to the Faith ONLY Goats that did not do Good works? Lake of fire for them...!!!!!

Gavin What happened to the Faith PLUS Good works Sheep... ??? Haven for them!!!

Gavin there are over 100 verses that tell us the importance of WORK!!!

Gavin you twist words... You said.. "alter call" you would know that it is an opportunity to respond to what the Lord may be doing in your heart, in other words it is an opportunity to repent to say sorry.
You twist Heart .. LOVE.. to mean repentance... WRONG Heart or LOVE means "Giving of Your self" !!!!! Repentance is NOT LOVING it is letting go of "PRIDE" it is NOT LOVE!!!

Gavin you said not unless the Lord has convicted them of their sin and they have repented and asked the Lord to come into their lives. It is after this decision that they should be baptised ( Then you add. believe and then be baptised as scripture says not be baptised then believe as catholic dogma insists).

Gavin The Catholic Church does not say get baptized then believe!!!!! Again you are wrong!!!!

You said.. Baptisim is a sign of the rebirth that has already happened, it is you saying that you have died with Christ and that you have risen up anew, a new creation, no more in condemnation, free from the bonds of sin, living in grace and in relationship with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I agree 100% ... But here is My question to you... What happenes if you are NOT baptized, by the Holy Spirit.??? Remember John baptizing with water ONLY!!! ... Jesus Baptizes with WATER PLUS, AND, ALSO, ADDITION TO, The Holy Spirit! Water and Fire! Not Fire only! Not Holy Spirit Only! It is biblical Water AND the Holy Spirit! Water is still part of the salvation to receive the holy spirit!

Jesus is CHURCH, the Church is the voice and Hands of Jesus it continues His work on earth. It makes disciples ... Jesus told his Church to... Go and Baptize in the name of Father Son and Holy Spirit! Go and plunge men into GOD! The Church does what it is told to do!.. The Church adds water the new life is fed the Holy Spirit by God! It is a relationship between God and Man! To make this New re-born life!!

Dogknox

From: Dogknox Sent: 27/05/2006 03:29
1) Mary Mother of the Church!!!
Luke 1:43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Colo 1:24 Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

1 Cor 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

5) She is a Good Mother..
Eph 5:29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church—

6) Bible ALONE, is wrong! Bible ALONE, bible ONLY, Bible and Nothing Else! is Anti-Church!!! It is a Doctrine of Martin Luther!!! It is NOT in the bible ..
Eph 3:9-11 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Tim 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
Body of Christ ..
Eph 3:20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Jesus is the HEAD of the Church.. All bodys need a head.. All heads need a Body! The Church is a good mother... Jesus is Good!!!
Colo 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.


Notice "The Church is Jesus!!!! BIBLE alone LEAVES THE CHURCH OUT!!!!!! BIBLE ALONE WAS PREACHED BY MARTIN LUTHER A DEFROCKED CATHOLIC PRIEST!
Acts 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

Acts 8:3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

The Church heals her Children!!!
James 5:14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
John 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Bible Alone is Anti-Church it Weakens the Church!!!!!
1 Cor 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

Bible Alone does not shepherd the Church it takes power fron the Sheperds, the leaders!!!
Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Notice: Christ is the Savior of "HIS BODY"!!! The Catholic Church is Christs Body!!!
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

The Church has leaders!!!! It is NOT BIBLE ALONE!!!
1 Cor 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Notice..... Mary is to Give birth to Jesus, "The Son of the Most high!... Mary is the Mother of Jesus .. The Mother of the Body of Jesus.. The Body of Jesus is "The Church!!!!
Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

The Church will last to the end of time!!!

Father but NO MOTHER!!!!
Luke 1:48 for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed, ....
To be part of any "Generation" you MUST FIRST be part of the Family!!!!!
If not part of the "Generation of Mary's Family" then Jesus is NOT your brother!!!!!

Do Protestants say "Mary is my Mother"? No they don't!!! They say "Mary is NOT my mother"!!!!

Do Protestants say "Mary is blessed??" No they don't; they say "Mary is just an ordinary woman!!! "

Can Protestants say "All Generations" No they can't .. even if they wanted to to... There history starts in the fifteen hundreds when Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church!!!

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Martin Luther was "AMONG" the Church!!!
It does not work the other way around...
You can't say the Catholic Church was "Among" Martin Luther! ...

Martin Luther the FIRST "PROTESTER" introduced false teachings...
Faith ALONE leaves LOVE out of the Church!!!!!
Bible ALONE takes salvation of souls, OUT OF THE CHURCH!!!!
The Catholic Church .. The Only Universal Church removed Martin Luther, because of His "Distructive Heresies"!!!

The Church gives re-birth to all peoples!!!
Matt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Dogknox

From: Gavin Sent: 25/05/2006 13:15
Dognox,

So mary the church and God (all three parts of God) make up another trinity do they, mmmhhh no wonder you worship and pray to Mary if she is part of a trinity that you liken to the trinity that is God.

However I will address your obvious lack of knowledge on the issue of salvation. This is how I stand before the Lord, I stand holy and pure not because of something that I have done but because of something that he has done. I am not saved through my baptisim, I am not saved by any alter call (which there wasn't any when I was saved but that is coincidental) but because the Holy Spirit came and convicted me of my sin, it was the Lord that showed me my need for salvation and it is his grace that has set me free from the bondage that I was in. You see there is no work that we can do that can save us. There is only belief and hope. You seem to think that people who respond to an alter call believe that the alter call saves them, where actually if you knew anything about the "alter call" you would know that it is an opportunity to respond to what the Lord may be doing in your heart, in other words it is an opportunity to repent to say sorry. there may be some that believe that they are saved when they have been up and prayed for in an alter call but they are not, not unless the Lord has convicted them of their sin and they have repented and asked the Lord to come into their lives. It is after this decision that they should be baptised (believe and then be baptised as scripture says not be baptised then believe as catholic dogma insists). Baptisim is a sign of the rebirth that has already happened, it is you saying that you have died with Christ and that you have risen up anew, a new creation, no more in condemnation, free from the bonds of sin, living in grace and in relationship with the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. (For more on salvation and baptisim you should go look at the my last post on the salvation thread)

tell me Dognox did the Lord give his Spirit to the 72 when he sent them out? Did he take it back from them afterwards or did they keep it.

Tell me again Dognox, is not the Spirit that fell on Pentecost the same Spirit that the Lord gave to the disciples.

Tell me Dognox, do you evengelise? or do you think that is something that only the priests should do as well since the Lord has not told you to do it (accept through the bible).

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 25/05/2006 07:13
Ok Dognox
The ball is in your court. What l want from you is specific scriptures that specifically show these things that you have said, to be true...

1. "Mary the Mother of the Church!!!""
2. "the Church" would give birth as in "Born Again" in Christ..
3. They have a Father ...God.. No mother!
This, in its self, should, send alarms ringing, because it goes against nature.
4. The Catholic Church is a Good Mother.
Because She is 'The Body of Christ,
5. She the Church Heals her Children
6. Bible Alone is A doctrine of MAN and NOT found in the bible...
If you can prove from scripture these six propositions then l might consider becoming a Roman Catholic.

Steve

From: Dogknox Sent: 25/05/2006 05:23
Hello all...

Jesus is God... The Holy Spirit is God.... The Father is God...
3 persons one God... We all agree...?

Question was asked... .. Is Mary my Mother or is it the Church? Post #52... So Mr Dognox which is it which Mother do you have, is Mary your Mother, or is the Church your Mother. You can not have two mothers

Answer is... Simple.. Like the trinity .. The Church is the Body of Christ.... Mary gave birth to Christ.. So that makes "Mary the Mother of the Church!!!""

Part two of the same question...
Is also simple .. How does a person become part of the Body of Christ?
Once we figure this out then we all understand my answer?!

Some people (Not Catholics) say; to become a member of Christs body, you must; "take it!!!" As in "Alter Call"!
TAKE Jesus as lord and saviour!!!!

Catholics and some Protestants say Baptism is the way... The Church Baptizes the Person, Into Christs Body!
IF you agree with this method then it is a easy step to see how "the Church" would give birth as in "Born Again" in Christ..

Thus Mary is the Mother of the Church and the Church is the Mother of Me.

The first Method mentioned "Alter Call" leaves Church out of the process! Church becomes unnecessary.
Thus No Mother can be found among these people.. They have a Father ...God.. No mother!
This, in its self, should, send alarms ringing, because it goes against nature.
It is common in the secular society like today.. Divorce; Children raised in broken homes, they lack direction and care .. they should have and would have received if they were in a whole family with Father AND Mother!

The Catholic Church is a Good Mother.
Because She is 'The Body of Christ, She MUST be Holy, because Christ is Holy!
Christ has No sin!
BUT this does not mean the Children of the Church are without sin..
The Church is full of sinners, this is why Catholics go to Church.
There would be no need for Christ if we were not, sinners!
This Mother "The Church" Feeds her Children like a good mother should, She feed the "true Manna that came down from heaven"!

She the Church Heals her Children when injured "Confession"
John 20:22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

The Church teaches and gives direction to her children, She is guided by the "Holy Spirit".
Just like the "Pillar of Fire" the people of Moses followed, if it stopped moving they stopped!
Fire Landed on the Church leaders on Pentecost; this Fire (The Holy Spirit) is teaching and guiding the leaders, we follow in faith and trust this guidance!
Catholics are not left to fend for them selves.

The common belief sounded by Protestants is.. Post 51
Like you I do not say I belong to any denomination I am part of the Church the body of Christ the living stones and Christ Jesus the Chief corner stone.

This is a common proclamation from all who believe the Church is not nessesary ... "Bible Alone" leaves Church out of salvation. When the bible tells us of "The Church" doing Christs work here on earth!
Bible Alone is A doctrine of MAN and NOT found in the bible...
The Bible tells all... The CHURCH is the Pillar and foundation of TRUTH.. There is NO place in the bible that tells us which books belong in the bible all the books ar placed there because "The Church" decided .. The Bible tells us "The Church" is Guided by the Holy Spirit!!!

So you can see how it is an error to say "Church is Not important!!!"

Dogknox

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 24/05/2006 20:49
Agreed Merry.

The thing is to be able to discern the difference between defending the tuth and being a pain in the neck.

Some of the things Jesus said were divisive. They divided the believers from the unbelievers.

We must remember that...
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
Steve
From: Missy Sent: 24/05/2006 21:01
You stole my verse Steve!!!


Titus3:10&11

If anyone is causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with that person. For people like that have turned away from the truth. they are sinning, and they condemn themselves.

From: Missy Sent: 24/05/2006 11:30
Agree with you Merry and with you steve, we can't ignore false teachings Merry, we have very new christians here and if we let certain posts go up without replying they would think that we would agree with them which we don't. The posting from ourselves is all very civil too, but we cannot be accountable for the attitudes of certain individuals. Anything which insults or offends is deleted, but debate is good! A great way to teach and learn.

MISSY.
From: Missy Sent: 24/05/2006 11:31
Gavin,
Im sure if you read back through all Dogs postings you could fill a book.

MISSY.
From: Gavin Sent: 24/05/2006 11:48
yeah I know I have been but that one was so glaring because it was in the same post, I would love to hear the explination.

From: Dunggate Sent: 24/05/2006 12:43
Gavin I doubt whether you get an understandable explanation Just a load of copy paste repeats.
Elaine.
From: Merry20004 Sent: 24/05/2006 12:49
I agree that healthy debate is good amongst Christians, as long as it stays that way, but arguing about doctrine can be quite devisive if not kept in check, and far from building up the Body of Christ, begins to tear it down.
Merry
Steve, whoops, missed your post there!
Yes, there is a difference, I agree. We all want to know the truth of scripture, and we won't get it by defending the traditions of any church. For me personally, if it's not in the Bible, then it isn't the word of God but man made, and we know how erroneous that can be!
Merry

From: Gavin Sent: 24/05/2006 10:50
contradiction spottting

Dognox post 46

Okay Recap... Church .. The Bride... The Mother.... Gives Catholics "New Life".. The Church the Mother gives us Spiritual Re-Birth!!!!
The Father sends the Holy Spirit!!!
Catholic have a "Mother and a Father"... !

'The body of Christ is born of a pure mother'
My answer...
This is horrendous heresy the church is not born of Mary! (dognox quoting steve here)

I Say the Church IS the BODY... Whos Body??? Christs Body!!!
Did Mary give birth to Christ? YES!!!
Did Christ have a Body at birth? Yes!!!
Did Mary give birth to only Jesus' head? NO!!!!

If The Church is the Body of Christ then Mary is Also the Mother of the Church... "The Body of Christ!!"

So Mr Dognox which is it which Mother do you have, is Mary your Mother, or is the Church your Mother. You can not have two mothers.

From: Missy Sent: 23/05/2006 22:48
Dog,
Just because you've realised your posts don't stand for anything, theres no need to start on Steves personal beliefs. (or his pastors for that matter) Is it my imagination or do you always attack Steve? You do seem too. Your getting very sarcastic too, well if all else fails eh?..

MISSY. (who is still waiting on your testimonies)
From: openairpreacherman Sent: 24/05/2006 07:09
Merry
I quite agree, This thread is getting out of hand. That in making personal remarks.
As for the subject of the tread itself. Yes l think these things do need to be discussed. They do no harm unless it becomes ca personal thing. It is important for Christians to debate and fight for the truth of the scriptures.

There is a great deal of difference between fighting for the scriptures and defending the traditions of a 'church'.

Steve
From: Dunggate Sent: 24/05/2006 09:03
Merry ,
I agree with what your saying but also agree with Steve's comments, that we can discuss, defending the truths, but we should be speaking in the love of Christ and at times
nt shown in the posts..
Like you I do not say I belong to any denomination I am part of the Church the body of Christ the living stones and Christ Jesus the Chief corner stone.
Elaine.

From: Merry20004 Sent: 23/05/2006 22:33
WHOAH! This thread is getting way out of hand. Instead of concentrating on our differences, we should be concentrating on the things we both have in common.
I refuse to say that I have a denomination. I am a Christian, full stop!
We all have views which we think are right, and which we think are wrong. It serves no purpose to argue and divide ourselves as to whose is the "best" form of Christianity.
The fact that we all believe that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins, was resurrected and now sits on the right hand of The Father should be enough for us all!
Merry

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 23/05/2006 22:25
Just a few points

You say...
and Jesus the Father sends the Holy Spirit
My answer...
Jesus is NEVER called the 'father' This ia another example of your confused thinking. As l said before its not even Roman teaching. Ironically the Roman church is more orthodox that that!

You say...
You believe in Abortion! Homosexual Pastors! Birth Control! Divorce! All taught and condoned by your churches!!!!
My answer...
With respect this is a slur on me. You do not know what l believe. Nor should you lump all the errors of churches onto me. Just as l would not assume that all priests are peadophiles as some are (or were).

As for the rest I'll let them pass but you need to be careful about making allegations without substantiation.

From: Dogknox Sent: 23/05/2006 20:52
Reply to Openairpreacherman.. You said..
You say...
'The body of Christ is born of a pure mother'
My answer...
This is horrendous heresy the church is not born of Mary!

I Say the Church IS the BODY... Whos Body??? Christs Body!!!
Did Mary give birth to Christ? YES!!!
Did Christ have a Body at birth? Yes!!!
Did Mary give birth to only Jesus' head? NO!!!!

If The Church is the Body of Christ then Mary is Also the Mother of the Church... "The Body of Christ!!"

You say..
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

The new birth is not linked in anyway to a mother!

I say... All birth come from MOTHERS!!!!
Unless like I mentioned before you are a worm!!!!
The Bible tells Catholics... Jesus has a Bride!!!!
The Bible tells us 'The Church is the Bride" ....
The Bible tells us "We must be "Reborn" of WATER and Spirit!
Meaning Baptism!!!!!

Openairpreacherman Question.... Who baptizes?
Can you think of anyone?
Let me help you... Do Hindus Baptize you into Christ?
Noooo Okay how about the Buddhists ? Would you go to Tibet to become a Christian?
Noooooo Okay lets think this one through... hmmmm, Oh, I know.
If I wanted to become a Christian I would go to A Christian Church!!!!! Yessss I think that is it....
"The Church Baptizes us with the water and Jesus the Father sends the Holy Spirit to indwell the new Christian!!!!"
Water AND the spirit! Not just Spirit the Bible tells Catholics WATER PLUS Spirit.. Both not only Spirit!
It takes two to make a Baby... Father and Mother!!!!! Unless "You are a worm"!!!!!

Okay Recap... Church .. The Bride... The Mother.... Gives Catholics "New Life".. The Church the Mother gives us Spiritual Re-Birth!!!!
The Father sends the Holy Spirit!!!
Catholic have a "Mother and a Father"... !

You say..

I think you are saying by the word 'church' here the Roman church.
If the Roman church is the bride of Christ then any person not in it is lost forever. And l'm unsaved!
Let me say l will never bow to a church that worships images, prays to other than God, confesses to a unbelieving man, or blasphemes the Lords death every Friday.

I reply...
You are happy "Communing with a Symbol" Even thow the Bible tells you you will bring Judgment against you if you don't recognize the Body and Blood!

You are Happy believing the Doctrine of Bible Alone.. even if this is Not in the Bible... The Bible tells us "The Church is the foundation of truth"!!

You are happy following the Doctrine of "Faith Alone" yet you don't believe the words of Jesus! All of John 6!!!

You believe in "Alter Call" Not in the Bible! Another Doctrine of Man!

You Believe in the Doctrine of "Can't loose Salvation" Another non biblical lie! Never taught until Calvin!

You believe any Church will do but admit some are not Christian! So what is it: anyone or just some???? And who decides which one? How do you know it is the right one? Catch twenty two? Anyone but not everyone!!!!

You believe in Abortion! Homosexual Pastors! Birth Control! Divorce! All taught and condoned by your churches!!!!

You don't have any history you can trace more then five hundred years ... You refuse to admit Christ started "One, Holy, Apostolic, Universal Church! All Biblical!!

If you don't understand a passage in the bible or refuse to accept and believe the Words of Jesus.. you say "Oh that verse, we will understand that particulars one, when we get to heaven!!!!

The early Church Baptized Babies, Believe in the Bread and Wine as The Body and Blood, Confession to a Priest, Prayed for the dead, Had all 72 books in the bible, Followed the linage back to the Apostles... etc All you refuse to believe...

You are content to follow your pastor who like you, is also searching for Jesus!

Dogknox

From: Missy Sent: 23/05/2006 20:01
I agree about the confused way of thinking Steve.



Dog,
Perhaps you need a break? You seem stressed. Your almost raving.

MISSY.

From: openairpreacherman Sent: 23/05/2006 19:24
I've been around for a long time and l have never heard so much confused thinking.

You say...
'Can Jesus be married to the Church without Children???
my answer...
This reduces the concept of children to sexual union between God the father and the church, which is both absurd and if put forth seriously is blaspheme. Have you never heard that Christians become Gods children by 'adoption' not sex.

You say...
'The body of Christ is born of a pure mother'
My answer...
This is horrendous heresy the church is not born of Mary!

You say...
How can Jesus' "head" be born only from Mary with out his body???
My Answer...
I'm not sure quite what this means but I'm sure it is error or even heresy.

You say...
I don't know about "YOU" but other then worms "ALL need a Mother, to have Children"...
My answer...
This is the error of the Pharisees including Nicodemus who believed that salvation was from a mother in a new birth.

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

The new birth is not linked in anyway to a mother!

You say...
The word "Father" denotes "Mother" or the word "Father" is wrong!!!!
My answer...
The word Father does not refer to a sexual status like in male humans with sexual organs. The very concept would be heretical. That there is a male and female God!

You say...
Up until Martin Luther all Christians had a Mother... The Church!!!
My answer...
This is not historically true there were other groups that were not part of the Roman Church as Luther was originally. They refused to join the Roman church and were prosecuted for their faith. They never left the Roman church because they were never a part of it!

You say...
Sorry but you are wrong .. It is biblical and it is also the way man and animals reproduce (other then the odd worm and low life) Man is Born of woman... Not hatched!!!
My Answer...
So you do believe that Christians are born from a sexual union between God and the Church. disgusting and blasphemous! even to the Roman church l understand. This is not Roman catholic teaching.

You say...
The Church is a Bride she must be female because Jesus is Male!!!! Or are you saying Jesus is married to a worm!!!!!
My answer...
I think you are saying by the word 'church' here the Roman church.
If the Roman church is the bride of Christ then any person not in it is lost forever. And l'm unsaved!
Let me say l will never bow to a church that worships images, prays to other than God, confesses to a unbelieving man, or blasphemes the Lords death every Friday.

Your Theology would even by unfamiliar to the Roman church itself.

Steve